A Question to any SE Pro...

[Irish82]

I am going to start tonight my first ever purely SE game, as I've always been a CE guy. I've never played a spiritual leader either, so I'm going to use Gandhi as my leader and try the SE thing out.

I'm playing Monarch level Warlords 2.08. I'll just generate a Standard map probably at Epic speed, everything else normal. Here's my basic question for something that seems to be in a bit of a dispute with some of the SE guys on this board.

What early wonders should I try and build and what should my early points of emphasis be. I'd ideally like to do the Oracle gambit to Metal Casting and get the Pyramids from a GE for Representative scientists, then go my normal route to CoL to get Caste System, but what about the Parthenon and the Great Library. I fear that the Pyramids gambit will prevent early growth and axe rushing, a usual staple of my games, and also prevent me from getting the Parthenon and GL. Then again getting the Pyramids without being Industrious seems a bit of a reach unless I get lucky with stone/production resources.

So what is the order of priority for an SE gameplan early(all resources being equal)

Oracle slingshot-metal casting - pyramids
Great Library
Parthenon
Expansion with as many food cities as possible
Taking out an early AI using slavery and expanding my civ

I understand much of this depends on who my neighbors are and what resources are there, but all else equal what are the most important early things to do?

One more question, what early civics are the VERY best for SE? Hereditary rule to keep my happiness cap high (assuming I don't get the Pyramids)? Pacifism to increase GP production?

Thanks for the help.

 

[baboon]

I'm definately not a pro, but I read some SE threads. They say people don't require the Pyramids, but it helps a lot. Same for the GL. They work together very well. The Parthenon however, well, you don't really need it I think. But if you can get it without sacrificing, it's great ofcourse......So, you probably have to deal with your situation. Are you getting marble or stone, do you have a lot of forest to chop etc.

Still, just think of 2 extra scientists getting 3 beakers each with representation from the Pyramids

If you have room for more, I would probably try Oracle over Parthenon, but I never went full SE. In fact, I never played much games without going for Oracle (usually for CoL) so I might be too focused on Oracle (playing Prince and Monarch atm)

My 2 cents, as said I'm not really an expert.

 

[futurehermit]

k, well if you play Gandhi, forget the whole pyramids gambit thing.

just focus on the GL. the parthenon is not necessary when playing a philosophical leader.

the way to play Gandhi is to conquer some land early axe or chariot-rush while beelining lit. then hunker down, build the GL, tech to Col, lightbulb phil, run caste system and pacificism and as many scientists as you can manage in your GL city (hereditary rule helps a lot here for happiness). you can also run scientists in other high-food cities.

tech to CS then bulb paper, education and liberalism. to bulb liberalism you need to have metal casting (NOT machinery), compass, and calendar.

once you have liberalism you have two options: 1) attack again with all the catapults you've been building in your production cities; or 2) beeline military tradition + gunpowder and upgrade the 10 knights you pre-built while building a few more cav and drafting muskets in addition to the 6-9 catas you built in your production cities.

either way, go knock heads

 

[ParadigmShifter]

k, well if you play Gandhi, forget the whole pyramids gambit thing.

...

either way, go knock heads

Gandhi would be so proud . I tried an SE game (a first for me) about a week ago and it was going good (Shaka though - I play random leaders at the moment - just learning, not philo), no pyramids either. It all went well until Saladin (who I was beating up on big time) vassalized to Mao who had grenadiers when I only had knights and maces. My research petered out and I was making a loss at 0% research. I did get liberalism though. When units started getting disbanded, I quit. My early attacks were devestating though, it was a fun game. I guess I need more practice.

 

[carl corey]

I'm right in the middle of a Monarch game with Gandhi! I tried all sorts of strategies with him but in this game I went for a clear SE with Great Library and that's it. Unfortunately my closest neighbour (and only one in range for early attacks) was Churchill (protective) which meant I only took about half of his cities before I went into bunker mode. Too bad since London had Parthenon...

But my capital (with GL and National Epic - built without marble) produced Great Scientists like mad. Right now I think I have 4 or 5 settled in it, an Academy, Oxford, GL (avoided obsoleting it) and still running a few Scientists in it. And while I didn't lightbulb Liberalism I think I had at least one GS settled in the capital by the time I was researching it. Nobody got near Liberalism before I finished it.

---

Some other thoughts: Pyramids are good, but with a Philosophical leader if you don't have stone you can forget about them. As for Oracle based gambits, I got the Pyramids like that once, but I'd rather not try again. They're better suited to Industrious leaders I think.

---

About civics: Bureaucracy is pretty useless since there are high chances your food-rich capital will house the GL and thus run farms and scientists. You can wait to switch to Vassalage if you prepare for wars, or Nationhood if you take it from Liberalism. Two happiness from barracks and no upkeep can be pretty good even if you don't draft yet.

Caste Systems I think is a must. However, if you're Spiritual (Gandhi) you can easily switch to Slavery to whip some buildings and get back to Caste System once you're done. I had 3 sea-foods and one grassland cow in the capital that allowed me to alternate between production and Scientists, but without Caste System I'd have had to keep producing weak units for no reason. Also, Caste System allows you to switch to Merchants if you run out of money. Happened to me twice in that game; I was two-three turns away from capturing a few cities when I ran out of money, so I switched all specialists everywhere to Merchants and saved myself. That means I didn't attack early enough, and that's one big problem I still have to correct when playing SE.

Obviously, if you get the Pyramids you'll want to run Representation. It gives you additional happiness, so not running HR isn't that bad. Also, if Spiritual (I'm thinking Ramesses) you can switch to and from Police State for unit construction if you want. If you don't have the Pyramids then HR is indeed necessary, especially if you don't adopt a religion. Gandhi can live with state religion + temple for a while, plus you'll likely get Taoism for a second temple where needed.

Pacifism is good, but when you're preparing a military campaign be careful not to ruin yourself with unit cost. You can run Theocracy for a while if you have it, then go back to Pacifism once the war is over and you lost a few troops.

 

[Mutineer]

Piramid, Panteon, even Stonehenge and Oracle, Garden, GL all this are good SE wanders.
Add to it GreatLigthhouse on warter maps.

Idea of SE if in flexibility. You do not stick to one plan, but you can addopt to what is easy or faster.

For Leader with Mysticism Oracle pach is a natural one. If you have Marble near by so you can build oracle with Double speed it become even better.

I never bother with fancy GE slingshot to piramids, they are to expencive. But if you have stone and opportunity (like discover math and no one build them yet) it could be a good investment.
For non philosofical Pantheon is a good idea. But again, if neybor very near and has attractive land taking him over could be better idea.

It is all about flexibility. With SE you can choise any of this pach, secret is to choise the rigth one for current situation.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

In a nutshell, I think my problems were:

Not running representation since I didn't have pyramids. When I ran merchants to try and stop the cash flow problem, my research bombed. Shaka wasn't a good choice. When I conqured cities, I switched to slavery to whip a courthouse or two, which denied caste system. I did have a huge stack of catapults and axemen/macemen which made conquring easy. I should have capitulated Saladin before he vassalized to Mao. I will learn from my mistakes. I wasn't spiritual but I had the heroic epic in my capital and GPs popped me philo, paper, education and liberalism. But impis vs. knights and grendiers wasn't a goer! I got nationalism from liberalism but my tech rate was too low to get cavalry. I got constitution just as my army ran out of steam. My reseearch was too low. Interested to try it again soon when I get a philospohical leader, it really was good until it ran out of steam.

 

[JackOfClubs]

It's important not to sacrifice military for research, which is always a temptation when running SE (especially the first couple of times you try it). Some people say that the best use of the SE is to be constantly at war. This forces you to think properly about the "E" in SE -- it's the economy not the whole game. Optimizing civics, wonders and research paths are great, but the reason you are doing that is to beat the other guys in whatever victory condition you are pursuing. I find it useful to think in terms of specific SE cities so that I maintain a balanced view of the rest of the empire.

 

[carl corey]

In a nutshell, I think my problems were:

Not running representation since I didn't have pyramids. When I ran merchants to try and stop the cash flow problem, my research bombed.

That happens in most of my SE games so far, but I try to time everything so that when I'm short on money I'm attacking someone. I may have little to no research for a while, but I get back once I lose some units and conquer some cities.

Shaka wasn't a good choice. When I conquered cities, I switched to slavery to whip a courthouse or two, which denied caste system. I did have a huge stack of catapults and axemen/macemen which made conquering easy.

This is pretty normal, since otherwise you'd lose a lot of population for nothing when you get new cities. The best thing you can do is to assure you conquer all cities in a short period of time so that they all come out of revolt within a couple of turns from each other. This way you don't have to spend much time in slavery and can be back in Caste System after that. But yeah, Shaka is probably better off going for a CE. No spiritual for civics change, no Philo and no Industrious, but inclined to war; means you'll pretty much want to be in slavery most of the time.

I should have capitulated Saladin before he vassalized to Mao. I will learn from my mistakes.

Lately when I have a powerful neighbour nearby that I cannot attack right now I'd rather bring him into the fight after a couple of turns even if it means the other AI could vassalize to him. At least I'm not at war with both right away. Plus, if you're the first one to attack you'll also be the first one to be able to take him as vassal anyway.

I wasn't spiritual but I had the heroic epic in my capital and GPs popped me philo, paper, education and liberalism.

What' Spiritual got to do with anything? And I think you mean National Epic.

But impis vs. knights and grenadiers wasn't a goer! I got nationalism from liberalism but my tech rate was too low to get cavalry.

When I'm too far from cavalry I'll go the grenadiers way. Most civs will have Machinery & Engineering right now, so you can trade for them as you should have quite a few techs on them. Maybe even trade for Guilds if you can. Trading is the first priority after Liberalism as you'll be low on power and with obsolete units and you want to change that fast.

I got constitution just as my army ran out of steam. My research was too low. Interested to try it again soon when I get a philosophical leader, it really was good until it ran out of steam.

Constitution is useless right after Liberalism. It demands a lot of research and doesn't help you in any way correct your military problems. It's either Grens & Cannons or Cavalry from there. Otherwise you'll be just a big juicy target.

 

[futurehermit]

I had a really solid SE game with Hatty last night. My capital had tons of floodplains and I captured an opponent capital early that was also food-rich. I built the GL in my capital and farmed the floodplains. I ran 6 scientists (+2 in my capital from GL) in both those cities while the rest focused on hard hammers and producing units (I got the HE quite early in my main military city). I got liberalism ca. 800AD (would've been a couple centuries earlier but the enemy capital and a good holy city were a ways from my capital hurting my maintenance) and was producing cavalry ca. 1100-1200AD. I quit when it was obvious that I would be able to go on and wipe out the other two civs on my continent (Kublai and Louis...the latter vassalized to the former and I was beating them both up at the same time) and when I found out that the other continent would be no match (HC had become a vassal of Washington and Issy was the other one. No financial threat.)).

Moral of the story: You only need about 2 solid cities to run specialists in order to make your SE function at maximum efficiency (I was running CastSys and Pac). The point of it is to catapult you into the Renaissance era while the AIs are in the Medeival era and then you go on to win a domination victory in the Renaissance era.

 

[Irish82]

Well thanks for all the tips guys.

First off, I played standard speed, and oracled metal casting and got the Pyramids up. I built the Pyramids in the engineer city so my 3rd GP would be another GE to build the GL, assuming it was still there. My 2nd GP was a Great Prophet from the Oracle that I used to bulb Theology, founding Christianity, and sure enough when the the GE came later GL was still not built and the 3 other civs on my continent hadn't even research Literature yet

So I chopped an axeman army and later promoted some to maceman and took out alexander (what a weak civilization the greeks are) to my south, got to Liberalism first by using 3 GS and went with Nationalism.

So I have a capital city on floodplains with the GL that is pumping out GS left and right (National Epic), have my science at about 30% and am the most well researched on my continent. To this point everything has gone swimmingly, but I find myself with a decision to make.

Both civs around me are bigger and are pretty well defended. It's roosevelt and some imperialistic guy who has an amazing amount of land mass. To make matters worse their core cities are very far away making razing probably the only option. They both have a ton of crossbows so any maceman rush is out, but I'm also not sure if I have enough land to win a space race. The REALLY bad news is that they are Confucious buddies and are trading techs like crazy and have forced me to swith to Free Religion to stop the bad religious vibes.

I'm researching guilds right now to build some grocers (Flood plains - sick cities) and I'd like to get banking to use mercantilism, but I have a question:

Is beauracracy worth running? Because of happiness caps, my capital on floodplains has 5 villages and is still able to support 4 scientists in addition to the 2 from GL. Its my only city where I built cottages, everywhere else its farms and specialists. Here's my idea: After building Oxford, run beauracracy and in the capital work all the cottages and max out the Scientists. In all the other cities build grocers and banks and run all merchants. From the merchants income and multipliers I should be able to move science to about 70 or 80%, which should increase the use of the beuracratic capital, and I should be able to maintain my tech lead.

Or, should I bag all that and make a dash to Military Tradition and try and snub out my neighbors with some cavalry destruction. I worry that their cities are too far away, and I'd rather not have to run State Property. And if I raze their cities I'm only grabbing some cash and will definately piss the other one off. I probably wouldn't be able to fight both off at the same time either, both of them have much higher power.

I guess I'm asking what do SE's do in the middle of the game, after they've gotten liberalism and the GS effect on the game is reduced? Do I have to war? Or can I win a space race if I get optics first and make good with my distant neighbors and backfill techs as I shoot for the spaceship?

All in all the SE and Gandhi got me off to an amazing start, but now I'm stuck with no cottages and am in a bad spot for war.

 

[Mutineer]

How are you in a bad spot for a war?

You again in CE assumption of needed better trops.
You have Nationalism avalible!
Draft mass muskets or even maces and go do muskets/maces cats war.

Cats produce naturally, muskets draft!

Run merkanteniolism as soon as it become avalible.

build forbitten somewhere.

Just learn to use your advantage. I guest you have Nationalism avalible for agesss and still did not draft a single trop. Bad mistake.

 

[Irish82]

Those are some interesting points, although I have only had Nationalism for about 15 turns. Frankly I'm not going to draft Maces because both the other civs are littered with crossbows.

Honestly I've never used Nationhood extensively (I'm always a CE that depends on a science city capital, so I stick with Beuracracy until Free Speech comes around). I really don't know how to best use it. But maybe I should research gunpowder, switch to nationhood and head for cavalry to help.

I guess my concern is that taking the other two civs would completely bog down my already low commerce civ. But I'll try Nationhood and see if I can't grab some of the better cities, raze the rest and use a caravel to make contact with the other civs so I at least try and get back some trading partners. There is no way even with cavalry that I can take on both of them. Roosevelt has better cities but is further away, and Cyrus is closer but has better troops, and a lot of them.

I'll definately use Mercantilism ASAP.

 

[futurehermit]

Yes, draft muskets and build catas, but also: CAVALRY

You are too nervous with your SE

If you start risking a strike, you can run merchants and/or build gold in some cities with decent production. Running merchants is nice because if you generate a GM you can ship him out for some nice $ to keep yourself afloat.

Don't forget that you also accumulate money sacking cities and you can sack cities that have matured cottages that you can work to avoid sinking as well.

Try and use diplomacy to avoid having your opponent bringing in a war ally against you. Best way is to be on good turns with the ally as well so that the ally says "We can't betray our friends" or whatever.

 

[Morgrad]

Another couple points:

A SE shouldn't be losing money at 0% research... umm... ever. The whole point of a SE is that specialists learn you technologies - commerce doesn't - the slider is *supposed* to be really low (yes, even at zero).

That being said, an important part of a SE is one cottage city - and just one. One reasonable cottage city with money-multipliers (bank, market, grocer, etc.) can find your whole empire without having to make specialists (which are needed for science) to be merchants. A city with only 10 cottages can easily cover all of your civic and military upkeep costs. A size 20 city on mostly grassland (probably previously jungle) can make you scads of cash.

The Pyraminds are nice - get 'em if it's reasonable to do so, don't if it isn't. The Parthenon is nice - get it if it's reasonable to do so and you don't have to give up pyramids to get them. The Great Library is, although not technically required, the single most important wonder in the game for a SE.

 

[futurehermit]

Cottaging the capital is fine since you benefit from the bureaucracy bonus. The way I see it, if you're going to cottage a city, might as well be the capital.

It isn't a problem losing money at 0% science so long as you have a plan. You can sell techs for cash, raze-and-pillage for cash, and run merchants/build gold when you are in a pinch.

 

[Irish82]

I just completed the game.

Victory by Space Race in 1942. Yikes, thats late. But I was a good 25 turns ahead of my closest competitor at the end.

I listened to all the advice, and almost mounted an attack with Cavalry and musketman to the north, but Cyrus had too many troops, and his empire was spread out so much that I didn't see the long term benefit of grabbing some land over getting in a bloody war and losing both of my trading partners. So instead I hunkered down on the boarders, whipped universities so that I could build the Oxford in the capital (running beuracracy the rest of the way) and built grocers, markets and banks in the rest of the cities (I ran merchants only in those cities) I was able to run my slider at 80% the rest of the game, and my capital carried my science after getting all the GS it could handle and observatory too. At its peak I was getting 685 beakers a turn which was enough to keep me ahead about 2 or 3 techs from the next AI.

I kept Cyrus and Roosevelt as trading partners the whole way, and ultimately signed defensive pacts with both of them when I realized they couldn't catch me technologically. I also made sure to sell my older techs to the backwards countries to keep my science slider at 90%. The overseas attack from Brennus and Ghengis Khan were minor speedbumps. I had tanks versus their infantry and artillery, and the barrage promotions for the tanks worked wonders.

I got 11,000 for a score, horrible when compared to my last CE game of 65,000 with the Ottomans, but its a start. I would say that if I was more commited to the military and had neighbors that weren't so far away the SE would have worked wonders. That was my fault.

SE is pretty fun though, I ended up getting 32 GP throughout the game, and that basically was the key to victory. To put that in perspective for me I usually don't ever have more than 10. Sisutil's clever Oracle - MC - Pyramid gambit didn't hurt either, and I used Representation for the entire game. The SE was a nice change of pace from the standard dash to free speech and universal suffrage (neither of which I used all game).

Thanks again for all the input. To any other CE player out there thinking of trying out the SE I highly recommend Gandhi, the spiritual trait is fantastic and with Philosophy you will get a TON of Great People.

 

[futurehermit]

Space race is not a good victory condition for SE. You should focus on military. Once you have CoL and Currency it doesn't really matter how far away a city is, you can keep it.

 

[lukep]

Space race is not a good victory condition for SE. You should focus on military. Once you have CoL and Currency it doesn't really matter how far away a city is, you can keep it.

Indeed.

Domination or conquest is the norm.

Backdoor domination diplomatic also, especially when your population is twice the bigger opponent as in my last game with Hatty

 

[futurehermit]

@ Irish, if you want to learn more about the SE, join the play-along game I just posted.