A quote from the Odyssey in Civ4 (?)

[Anittas]

Hey everyone,

It seems that it's been more than 3 years since I visited this forum and since I played Civ3. I was never a regular poster here, but I checked the forum from time to time. I've tried Civ4 and I think it's okay, I guess. As for the point with this post: it was either in Civ3 or Civ4 that I remember a quote on the loading screen that was taken from either the Odyssey or the Iliad. Meh, either this or that.

I've tried to google for the quote using all kinds of word combinations, but without any luck. So I came here instead!

The quote described the death of the soldier that lied beside his shield (or spear?) and in his final moment, he felt that everything appeared to be right. It's something that I thought was good to read and remember. I should've written it down. I should, perhaps, read those masterpieces, but right now I just want to find the quote. Does anyone remember it?

Thanks in advance.

 

[ainwood]

From Homer, the iliad:

It is entirely seemly for a young man killed in battle to lie mangled by the bronze spear. In his death all things appear fair. But when dogs shame the gray head and gray chin and nakedness of an old man killed, it is the most piteous thing that happens among wretched mortals.

This is the text spoken when you discover bronze working in Civ4 (well, up to the end of the second sentence). Is this what you meantt?

BTW - this was posted in Civ Revolutions.

Moderator Action: Moved to Civ 4 General Discussions.

 

[Anittas]

Yes, Yes, Yes! That's the one! Thank you for finding it for me! Much obliged.

 

[AveiMil]

What does that quote translate into?

It's better to die a young heroic death than fade away as an old man? Not sure I get it.

 

[IronCrown]

Yes... I'd still rather die as an old man though

 

[Junuxx]

What does that quote translate into?

It's better to die a young heroic death than fade away as an old man? Not sure I get it.

Yes, but it seems to mean to me also that it's better to kill a young man than an old one. Killing someone who is young and at war with you is acceptable and just the way things are, while killing old and defenseless innocents is cruel en dishonorable.

So I'd say it goes both ways.

 

[Anittas]

Many interesting interpretations....but what's more interesting is that if you post the quote without the second sentence--as is the case with Civ4, it may have a different meaning. When I first read it, I interpreted it as the soldier, in his final moments, lost all distress and hate in life and became numb--seeing things from an objective point of view rather than an emotional one.

Perhaps the second sentence was excluded due to its violent depiction of death, but they should've been more careful. You shouldn't play with uncomplete citations.

 

[AveiMil]

Many interesting interpretations....but what's more interesting is that if you post the quote without the second sentence--as is the case with Civ4, it may have a different meaning. When I first read it, I interpreted it as the soldier, in his final moments, lost all distress and hate in life and became numb--seeing things from an objective point of view rather than an emotional one.

Perhaps the second sentence was excluded due to its violent depiction of death, but they should've been more careful. You shouldn't play with uncomplete citations.

I interpreted it exactly the same way before I read the full quote.

The shortened quote is referenced in a lot of sources outside of Civ4, so I wouldn't condemn them for not including the entire thing. The important part of the quote in Civ4 context is the reference to the bronze spear.

 

[dacole]

Though I have read both the Illiad and the Oddessy I never made the connection that this quote came from there. Good to know. I interpreted it differently when the last sentance is not included. With the last sentence included it becomes very antiwar. If you don't include the last sentence it can be seen as being very pro war much like it is a fine and noble thing for a man to die for his country.

 

[Agent327]

The intended meaning is entirely clear from "It is entirely seemly for a young man killed in battle to lie mangled by the bronze spear." Meaning it is the proper way - as opposed to living a long and non-heroic life, as is expressed in the 2nd sentence; both sentences are about (the horror) of death, but the 1st expresses the way things should be. So, in short, it is in praise of war - which in Homer's time (and long before) had its own God, Ares.

It's a pity the quote isn't properly identifed; it'd be interesting to know who exactly the speaker is.

 

[Glassfan]

"It's better to burn out, than fade away"

- from the ancient Greek philosopher, Niel Young (Live Rust).

 

[Bushface]

Yes... I'd still rather die as an old man though

Speaking as an old man, I'd rather not die at all.

 

[DigitalBoy]

Honestly, from when I first read the quote and right up until this topic, I thought it was a comment on the cruelty of war.

It is entirely seemly for a young killed in battle to lie mangled by the bronze spear.

"Seemly" means to be becoming or appropriate. Battles are fought with the intent of killing people, so death has a sense of propriety in a battle. War then has the capacity to turn young men's deaths into something acceptable and natural.

In his death, all things appear fair.

I thought it meant that all other things that are unjust appear trivial in comparison to how much more unjust it is for a man to die young in war.

I still like my interpretation better than taking the quote literally as a glamorization of war and death in battle.

 

[Agent327]

Interpretation is correct: attitudes towards war may change over time. That's why we do not have a god of war anymore. But war has been with mankind ever since its humble beginnings.

 

[sydhe]

The intended meaning is entirely clear from "It is entirely seemly for a young man killed in battle to lie mangled by the bronze spear." Meaning it is the proper way - as opposed to living a long and non-heroic life, as is expressed in the 2nd sentence; both sentences are about (the horror) of death, but the 1st expresses the way things should be. So, in short, it is in praise of war - which in Homer's time (and long before) had its own God, Ares.

It's a pity the quote isn't properly identifed; it'd be interesting to know who exactly the speaker is.

Finally found it! It's from Book XXII of the Iliad, and the speaker is Priam begging Hector not to go outside the walls of Troy to fight Achilles. The translation is Samuel Butler's:

". Come, then, my son, within the city, to be the guardian of Trojan men and Trojan women, or you will both lose your own life and afford a mighty triumph to the son of Peleus. Have pity also on your unhappy father while life yet remains to him- on me, whom the son of Saturn will destroy by a terrible doom on the threshold of old age, after I have seen my sons slain and my daughters haled away as captives, my bridal chambers pillaged, little children dashed to earth amid the rage of battle, and my sons' wives dragged away by the cruel hands of the Achaeans; in the end fierce hounds will tear me in pieces at my own gates after some one has beaten the life out of my body with sword or spear-hounds that I myself reared and fed at my own table to guard my gates, but who will yet lap my blood and then lie all distraught at my doors. When a young man falls by the sword in battle, he may lie where he is and there is nothing unseemly; let what will be seen, all is honourable in death, but when an old man is slain there is nothing in this world more pitiable than that dogs should defile his grey hair and beard and all that men hide for shame."

You can read the whole passage (actually the whole Iliad) here: http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/iliad.mb.txt The quote is in Book XXII at the end of the fourth paragraph.

 

[Agent327]

Great find.

Within context, the meaning is different; it seems DigitalBoy's interpretation is indeed correct and makes perfect sense with Butler's translation, which appears also to be more clear than the one from the Civpedia.

 

[Grey Fox]

Interesting. I've always wondered about this quote.
I gathered it was about how we perceive death, and that we can accept the death of the young man dying in war because a death in war is not murder. And it has, imo a tone that says; should it really be this way?

 

[thekaje]

No, you guys, digitalboy isn't right. The death of a young man is not the tragedy in the quote; indeed, that is okay. The tragedy is the old men who will be killed and "defiled".

It is not a glamorization of war, but neither is it a commentary on the tragedy of a young death. It is a commentary on the dishonour done to old men who suffer and die as collateral damage in war.