A strategy for peaceful win via space race.
- Thread starter Paxel
- Start date
Yes, that was the first time I did it.
By the way I sometimes destroy single cities. For example, one time Ragnar attacked me three times and I decided to destroy his border city to increase his distance to me.
The strategy remains the space race, but since you must have an army for defence, you may sometime use it for short term tactics.
Also, I sometimes donate units to weak empires when attacked by strong ones (to avoid that they become stronger).
I wrote that at immortal you can win with 8 cities (let's say in 90% of case), I think that with 7 cities the prob is 70% and with 6 cities 40% (all without conquest wars), but I'm improving, every game. Maybe I'll be able to post further hints.
I admit that war strategies (cannons, cavalry, etc.) are better because the prob to win is 95% but this is why I don't like them too much.
By the way I sometimes destroy single cities. For example, one time Ragnar attacked me three times and I decided to destroy his border city to increase his distance to me.
The strategy remains the space race, but since you must have an army for defence, you may sometime use it for short term tactics.
Also, I sometimes donate units to weak empires when attacked by strong ones (to avoid that they become stronger).
I wrote that at immortal you can win with 8 cities (let's say in 90% of case), I think that with 7 cities the prob is 70% and with 6 cities 40% (all without conquest wars), but I'm improving, every game. Maybe I'll be able to post further hints.
I admit that war strategies (cannons, cavalry, etc.) are better because the prob to win is 95% but this is why I don't like them too much.
VoiceOfUnreason
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2005
- Messages
- 3,663
Aside from the problem that guides for peaceful strategies encourage builders, I'm on board with that.
Comments on the guide
1) It should really incorporate, refute, or pass off the end game to Orion's guide, presumably the BTS endgame
2) Some of the tech points seem odd, and should get more detailed supporting arguments. Why Aesthetics -- especially if you are skipping Literature? Why Nationalism?
3) Why barracks everywhere in a peaceful strat?
4) Why eschew specialization?
5) "two lines at the same time: Currency->CoL and Monarchy->Feudalism" sounds pretty wishy washy. My guess would be that this isn't "two at the same time" as much as "one, then the other, and here are some guidelines as to which comes first."
6) I would normally expect to see a logic chain Creative -> cheap Libraries -> early Libraries -> early Great Scientist -> Academy. If that chain doesn't belong in this strat, then there should be an explanation why not.
6a) Given that the game is taking a cottage approach to a space win, does it make sense to spam academies?
Or hurry military units, freeing up your main production cities to build SS parts; gold can't buy SS parts directly, but it sure can help get them out faster.
Hello,
2) Aes is indeed useless for itself but it's great for trades. Also, it's "useless" also for the AI so it can be traded without worry. A minor bonus is the Shwedagon Paya which could be used for an earlier Free Religion (the +10% research is awesome early).
Nationalism is just like Aes, useless but great for trades. It's the most expensive (2900 beakers) and leads nowhere (for space race) so again it can be traded. Also, it leads to Democracy skipping Literature. I forgot to write that after Nationalism I stop tech trading. NEVER TRADE A TECHNOLOGY NEWER THEN IT. For the simple reason that the Internet will give it to you for free.
1) For this reason I don't follow that guide on space race, since you have the internet the most logical thing is to go to Fusion ASAP to get the free Great Engineer for a possible golden age, most of all the other techs will be provided by the internet, or they can be researched in 3-4 turns.
So my space race is very simple: Computers for Internet, then Flight/Satellites for Apollo, then Composites so that you have something to do during research (e.g. building those 5 casings) then go straight to Fusion, then research (or get it via internet) what is remaining, usually Genetics.
Doing so it's impossibile to lose the race, but I can lose by U.N./culture/domination.
3) The win is peaceful, but the game is not. 2-3 defensive wars are common, and they are great since they bring the Heroic Epic plus some generals. Barracks (I'm not 100% sure) increase your power statistics and allow to produce unit in all towns.
4) I don't have an answer. After you make cottages, you need some production (mines, then windmills or lumbermills) to make the standard buildings, (since you cannot abuse slavery, since you need citizens for cottages) and there is no room for anything else.
It seems to me that specialization = farms, for GP or extra production, but farms are the worst improvements in this strategy.
5) Well, they can be researched in any order, depending what you need first. If you don't have any happiness resource then Monarchy is top priority, to grow with HR.
6) The strategy itself could be called "delayed great people". After all, it does not change anything to make them later. Using a GP to bulb a 500-700 tech seems to me a waste.
6a) Not always: at Liberalism the best secondary cities produce 40 beakers so an extra Academy would bring other 20. But.. the same amount can be produced by a settled great scientist in the capital ( 6*(1.0 + 1.0 + 0.5 + 0.25 + 0.25 + 0.10) = 19 ) e.g. (Base + Oxford + Academy + Library + University + FreeReligion), plus the extra hammer(!).
Later, extra Academies would be better, but still inferior to a 1800 bulbing or an extra golden age.
If I have an "automatic" GP farm, e.g. all cottages and zero/one mines then I usually settle the first scientist, academy the second, then bulb or golden age the followings.
I build a secondary Academy before Liberalism only if I have a rich secondary city (gold, gems, dyes, etc.) with 60+ base commerce.
2) Aes is indeed useless for itself but it's great for trades. Also, it's "useless" also for the AI so it can be traded without worry. A minor bonus is the Shwedagon Paya which could be used for an earlier Free Religion (the +10% research is awesome early).
Nationalism is just like Aes, useless but great for trades. It's the most expensive (2900 beakers) and leads nowhere (for space race) so again it can be traded. Also, it leads to Democracy skipping Literature. I forgot to write that after Nationalism I stop tech trading. NEVER TRADE A TECHNOLOGY NEWER THEN IT. For the simple reason that the Internet will give it to you for free.
1) For this reason I don't follow that guide on space race, since you have the internet the most logical thing is to go to Fusion ASAP to get the free Great Engineer for a possible golden age, most of all the other techs will be provided by the internet, or they can be researched in 3-4 turns.
So my space race is very simple: Computers for Internet, then Flight/Satellites for Apollo, then Composites so that you have something to do during research (e.g. building those 5 casings) then go straight to Fusion, then research (or get it via internet) what is remaining, usually Genetics.
Doing so it's impossibile to lose the race, but I can lose by U.N./culture/domination.
3) The win is peaceful, but the game is not. 2-3 defensive wars are common, and they are great since they bring the Heroic Epic plus some generals. Barracks (I'm not 100% sure) increase your power statistics and allow to produce unit in all towns.
4) I don't have an answer. After you make cottages, you need some production (mines, then windmills or lumbermills) to make the standard buildings, (since you cannot abuse slavery, since you need citizens for cottages) and there is no room for anything else.
It seems to me that specialization = farms, for GP or extra production, but farms are the worst improvements in this strategy.
5) Well, they can be researched in any order, depending what you need first. If you don't have any happiness resource then Monarchy is top priority, to grow with HR.
6) The strategy itself could be called "delayed great people". After all, it does not change anything to make them later. Using a GP to bulb a 500-700 tech seems to me a waste.
6a) Not always: at Liberalism the best secondary cities produce 40 beakers so an extra Academy would bring other 20. But.. the same amount can be produced by a settled great scientist in the capital ( 6*(1.0 + 1.0 + 0.5 + 0.25 + 0.25 + 0.10) = 19 ) e.g. (Base + Oxford + Academy + Library + University + FreeReligion), plus the extra hammer(!).
Later, extra Academies would be better, but still inferior to a 1800 bulbing or an extra golden age.
If I have an "automatic" GP farm, e.g. all cottages and zero/one mines then I usually settle the first scientist, academy the second, then bulb or golden age the followings.
I build a secondary Academy before Liberalism only if I have a rich secondary city (gold, gems, dyes, etc.) with 60+ base commerce.
FlyinJohnnyL
You need more workers....
Do I have to skip Bronze working?...
nevermind, wrong thread...
nevermind, wrong thread...
Bellringer
Chieftain
Building the Spaceship itself is a challenging exercise in planning a project. I have developed a spreadsheet that calculates the turns required to research each tech and the turns required to produce each part in each city. You can then allocate production to each city in a timely and effecient manner. You can speed up the completion by several turns, I promise.
I will start a new thread and post it.
I will start a new thread and post it.
Firstly, let me say that I don't win a peaceful space race on Emperor, so I am reluctant to question someone who can do it on Immortal, but here goes.
1) You advocate the creative trait. In my experience, Philosophical, Financial and Spiritual are very strong for a peaceful space race. So choosing Creative means you have to give up one of these. Creative gives you a more rapid expansion of the cultural border, but little in the way of direct
benefit. Is it really worth giving up one of the (apparently) stronger traits?
2) You don't go for city specialisation in a big way, but surely you build Oxford, Wall Street and Ironworks, which automatically gives you a science city, a financial city and a production city. Specialising these three cities seems like a no brainer.
3) I generally try to build at least 3 wonders under all circumstances - Great Library, University of Sankore and the Taj Mahal. Since you don't go for Literature, I assume you don't build the GL, but I believe it is one of (if not the) strongest wonder for the peaceful space race.
Any comments?
1) You advocate the creative trait. In my experience, Philosophical, Financial and Spiritual are very strong for a peaceful space race. So choosing Creative means you have to give up one of these. Creative gives you a more rapid expansion of the cultural border, but little in the way of direct
benefit. Is it really worth giving up one of the (apparently) stronger traits?2) You don't go for city specialisation in a big way, but surely you build Oxford, Wall Street and Ironworks, which automatically gives you a science city, a financial city and a production city. Specialising these three cities seems like a no brainer.
3) I generally try to build at least 3 wonders under all circumstances - Great Library, University of Sankore and the Taj Mahal. Since you don't go for Literature, I assume you don't build the GL, but I believe it is one of (if not the) strongest wonder for the peaceful space race.
Any comments?
I agree, a spiritual+financial or other is usually stronger. The problem is that without creative it's usually a bit more difficult to grab land and it's a bit more difficult to defend in early wars (culture defense bonus). This means that without creative it's a bit more difficult to reach the correct "setup" for a pacific game, and I still think that most of the game is almost won/lost after you have choosen and build your cities.
I agree that playing with creative is a further "handicap".
I'm not a fanatic, and I experiment in every game. In the latest ones I now try to research Literature after Aes and I build the Great Library.
About specialization, I consider it good if it's "automatic", e.g. depending the city, the best improvement calls for themself.
This strategy is "be the technology leader thans to huge gold from cottages, then build a lot thanks to Universal Suffrage" so every generic farm on a grassland is a waste.
Edit:
I'm getting bad results with the Great Library, the problem for me is that the loss of time to research two other early technologies (politeism and literature) plus the time to build it (often you don't have marble) slows down too much my early development.
Since Creative leaders allows very cheap libraries I can obtain the first 2-3 great scientists faster allocating 1-2 specialists.
Edit2:
As suggested by user I'm experimenting with stronger leaders (non-creative). You're right... they work. I easily won a game with Darius, the organized trait "gave" 20-30 extra golds in middle ages which lead to a big advantage.
I agree that playing with creative is a further "handicap".
I'm not a fanatic, and I experiment in every game. In the latest ones I now try to research Literature after Aes and I build the Great Library.
About specialization, I consider it good if it's "automatic", e.g. depending the city, the best improvement calls for themself.
This strategy is "be the technology leader thans to huge gold from cottages, then build a lot thanks to Universal Suffrage" so every generic farm on a grassland is a waste.
Edit:
I'm getting bad results with the Great Library, the problem for me is that the loss of time to research two other early technologies (politeism and literature) plus the time to build it (often you don't have marble) slows down too much my early development.
Since Creative leaders allows very cheap libraries I can obtain the first 2-3 great scientists faster allocating 1-2 specialists.
Edit2:
As suggested by user I'm experimenting with stronger leaders (non-creative). You're right... they work. I easily won a game with Darius, the organized trait "gave" 20-30 extra golds in middle ages which lead to a big advantage.
Certain maps allow it. I've won space race with six cities on my own island before, but its got to be some super hot land. Usually at least a small, well-timed war is required to get enough land to pull ahead of the other AIs.
