A visual experiment: Would you like Civ3 to look like this -->

[Steph]

Well, anyone can easily add a new stats with the editor. Creating a new animation is a lot more difficult, at least for people like me who have no graphic skill.
That's were people come : they create new units, by creating a new animation. Because a new animation is 99% of a new unit (when using the time needed to make the whole unit).
Moreover, adding a new unit require to add it in the bix file. But you cannot post a bix file for every single unit you make. So you can post only a complete mod with lots of units, when you can post the animation for a single unit.

So my personnal feeling is that the animation posted here are indeed new units.

Beside, I think someone who starts on this forum (5 posts?) should wait, see and learn a bit before being critical

 

[Spooky]

Originally posted by Grey Fox
Here I cannot agree with you. A unit Graphics, which I consider most of the unit graphic packs released on this forum as, is most often a NEW UNIT...............

Again i think there is a difference between a new graphic and a new unit.......................

Even if the graphics/flc's depict units previously unavailable in the game, alone they cannont be considered new units ....more correctly new a skin/graphic that may be used to depict the true NEW UNIT within the game .... the most important part of that new unit are the stats that the unit creator provides from within the editor ... not the skin used to display it.

 

[DANGERBOY]

So Spooky requires that we include a .bi* file in order for him to consider it a new unit, is what it boils down to. Not even a suggested statistic, the whole file.

The problem with that, Spooky, is the interface for Civ 3 and PTW doesn't allow a simple insertion of stats (for example as part of the .ini file). It would be wonderful if it did, but it opens up a huge potential for exploits: you could change the unit abilities mid-game.

I suggest that you regard our use of "new unit" as shorthand for "new unit graphics", which is easier to type and conveys the important information (that what you're looking at is something different).

 

[Steph]

Originally posted by Spooky

.... the most important part of that new unit are the stats that the unit creator provides from within the editor ... not the skin used to display it.

False. Because adding the stats is extremely easy and fast. Creating the animation is long and difficult. So from the civ community point of view, people who are willing to add new units to their game, the animation is FAR more important.

Ask yourself this question: if you want to add in the game a completly new unit, let say a Napoleonic hussar. What would you need? How would you get what you need? How would you add this unit? You will need stats. Ok: Attack 5, defense 3, move 3 (for instance), and a few flag. And now? You run the editor, add the new units, input the stats and the name, and... you must use the same graphics as an another unit, because you don't have a hussar graphics. So you will have in game your new unit, but won't be able to differentiate it from others?

On the other hand, if you get the unit graphics (and most of the time unit creator also posts civilopedia texts and sounds), you can use them to really add a new unit in the game, just adding a few stats with the editor.

One last thing : I personnally would not like if someone post here a whole new unit, including stats, because I will probably not agree with his choice of stats, and I will change them for my mod. The really interesting thing is the graphics/sound, because I can't make them myself.

 

[thestonesfan]

"False. Because adding the stats is extremely easy and fast. Creating the animation is long and difficult. So from the civ community point of view, people who are willing to add new units to their game, the animation is FAR more important."

If it weren't for Steph's SBB tool, not many people could add the multi-figure units, though. So, like any other new unit, we'd have to rely on a creator.

 

[Smoking mirror]

Like grey fox says, the idea of skins comes from 3d shooters and the like: to add a completely new monster to a game like Quake for instance, you would need;
#1 a new model and/or
#2 a "skin" for the model and
#3 new scripted motions (think motion capture)
#4 new sounds
#5 new programing to add the monster to the game and
#6 modified AI for the computer to use it.

CIVIII is manifestly different to quake because it is a totaly customizable game, part 5 and six of the above are already in the game, so you have potentialy limitles "new units" already (as well as new buildings and techs etc..) the only work left to do is parts 1 through 4; work that is actualy quite difficult and beyond the abilities of the casual player. What the graphics creators do is make the potential of infinite "new units" the reality of finite "new units". And as they say "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush"- most people would say that the reality of a single new unit is worth a multitude of potential new units.

 

[zulu9812]

Spooky, what difference does it make if the units are called units or skins? At the end of the day, all of them, even the Firaxis ones, are simple graphics and sound. So stop trolling.

 

[Kryten]

Now wait a minute everybody......
........technically Spooky is right!

All a unit creator can do is to make a new animation.flc file, what Spooky calls a 'skin' (horribal word....I don't like it), and suggest to everybody what stats they should give it.
And as for the current "Ready-Made Multi-Figures".....well, sticking six Legionaries in a tile but leaving the stats as 3-3-1 does NOT make a 'new unit'.....it's just the old Civ3 unit with a new 'skin-job' (still don't like that word. I'm going to call them animation.flcs from now on).

However, consider this:-
Taking a Civ3 animation, say the Swordsman, and leaving the stats as 3-2-1, but simply changing the name to say "Gothic Tribesman" DOES make a new unit if only the Germans/Goths can build it. It becomes a new 'flavour unit', even if the animation and stats stay the same.
*Change the stats = a new unit
*Change the animation.flcs (but leave the stats the same) = a new 'flavour' unit, if only certain civs can build it.
*Change the animation.flcs (but nothing else) = the old unit but with a new look ('eye candy')

The problem is......if you want one multi-figure unit, then they must ALL be multi-figure units, or it will look 'odd' having some as singles and some as multi.....even if the stats and name don't change.
So Spooky is right; they are not 'new units' if the stats and name are the same, they are just a new look.

But now consider this picture, which I'm sure you have all seen before....

The Companion Horsemen, Hypaspists, Pike Phalanxes, Javelinmen and Peltasts are all new animations with new stats, so are new units.
But the Hoplites, Archers, Spearmen and Horsemen, if their stats are left as they are 'straight-from-the-box', are NOT new units, but just the old units with a new look.

However.....just by changing the stats by a little bit (like giving the Allied Hoplites an attack of 2 instead of 1), then they DO become new units, because they have a new look and new stats different from the old Civ3 Hoplite!
(How fine can you split a hair? )

This is getting all very confusing.
I think that it is much easier to say "new look = new unit" and have done with it!

Originally posted by Spooky
{Kryten posted }
"You seem very hard to please!"

{Reply}
Do you know my wife

Your wife has my deepest sympathy.

 

[The Troquelet]

By spooky's yardstick, EVERY forum-created animation in the Unit Library is a SKIN not a NEW UNIT since it is "only" graphics.

Stats take a minute to put in, I think you should give the people who actually do the work for us players more credit

 

[Spooky]

STEPH:

"False. Because adding the stats is extremely easy and fast. Creating the animation is long and difficult. So from the civ community point of view, people who are willing to add new units to their game "

Apart from the'Fasle' statement, I agree with you .... However just because something is fast and easy
doesnt make it unimportant. As for what is more important - the stats or the graphics - It depends upon
your point of view ...... the game engine doesnt give a damn what the unit looks like when it works out
combat ..... graphics are simply onscreen representations for the players, and as such take second place
in the parameters that are required to make a 'unit.

KRYTEN:

"*Change the stats = a new unit
*Change the animation.flcs (but leave the stats the same) = a new 'flavour' unit, if only certain civs can build it.
*Change the animation.flcs (but nothing else) = the old unit but with a new look ('eye candy')"

Agreed........and it is really the point i have been trying to make ...... however i would say
that your second point comes under the first .... determining what civ's can build a certain
units is part of the stats.

I can also agree that the work 'skin' isnt the best word to use .... though as the new graphics only change a units 'outward' apprearance it is just as apt as calling the graphic a 'new unit'

THE TROQUELET:
"By spooky's yardstick, EVERY forum-created animation in the Unit Library is a SKIN not a NEW UNIT since it is "only" graphics"

Well at the risk of starting this all over again .... YES .... though as already mentioned SKIN probably
wasnt the best word to use..

ALL:
You may or may not agree with my point of view ........ but I believe that technically it is correct (and others have said as much).
What I have not said is that the work of the graphics creators is not needed or appreciated ..... their work ensures that when somebody uses the editor to create a new unit the units can be correctly represented on-screen.
However these graphics alone do not constitute a new unit.

My point has been made ... maybe not to the satisfaction or agreement of all but as it has not been proved as totally
incorrect and as a scientifci investigator i know that if a point cannot be proved incorrect there must be a possibility that the view is in fact correct .... or at least possible.

 

[Spooky]

Kryten,

When you sit at your PC and make one of your excellent graphics you obviously
have a good idea as to the stats that you would apply to this unit ...
attack/defense/cost etc.

If you then apply these stats to your game then you have created a new unit
withing the game.... however if you then distribute the graphics files
...well you know my views there

Now consider ......................
You produce the graphics, zip them up and include withing the zip a text
file containing your reccommended stats ... if this is then posted you
are posting a set of graphics AND stats .... and i doubt anybody, even
those who are had to please, would doubt that this contains all the
parameters required to be classed as a new unit !

A text file would leave the stats still open to personal interpretation but
give those that wanted it an excellent view as to how the creator envisaged
the unit being used within the game.

If I download one of your files, use the graphics and stats provided then
i am using YOUR NEW UNIT .... and i am using it in the way it was intended.

A text file is quick and easy to use and importantly they are small.
and could also be used to provide a small paragraph providing some
historical information on the unit.

This is leaves the stats flexible so that others can use their own personal
preferences, whilst providing an insight into how they were intended to play
within the game ... nobody loses !!

Any thoughts ..........................

 

[Kryten]

Originally posted by Spooky
You produce the graphics, zip them up and include within the zip a text file containing your reccommended stats ... if this is then posted you are posting a set of graphics AND stats .... and I doubt anybody, even those who are hard to please, would doubt that this contains all the parameters required to be classed as a new unit !

Hmmm, I not so sure Spooky........
.....because, er, that is EXACTLY what I have done!
And it still seems that some people are just "hard to please".

I won't list all my new units here, but just a few samples....
(Have a quick read of the first three posts in these threads)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18005&pagenumber=1
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23699
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28635

....and look for the following phrase.....

Originally posted by Kryten
Once unzipped, you will find a readme.txt file which contains full details of how to add this unit to civ3 by using the Civ3Editor, as well as some suggested stats for this unit and some very simple customization instructions.

However, for the eight new Hoplite units that I created, I didn't add a readme.txt file, but instead explained in the thread what the new units are for and why they should have the stats that I was suggesting......

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37256&pagenumber=1

 

[Grey Fox]

Originally posted by Spooky
Now consider ......................
You produce the graphics, zip them up and include withing the zip a text
file containing your reccommended stats ... if this is then posted you
are posting a set of graphics AND stats .... and i doubt anybody, even
those who are had to please, would doubt that this contains all the
parameters required to be classed as a new unit !

A text file would leave the stats still open to personal interpretation but
give those that wanted it an excellent view as to how the creator envisaged
the unit being used within the game.

If I download one of your files, use the graphics and stats provided then
i am using YOUR NEW UNIT .... and i am using it in the way it was intended.

A text file is quick and easy to use and importantly they are small.
and could also be used to provide a small paragraph providing some
historical information on the unit.

This is leaves the stats flexible so that others can use their own personal
preferences, whilst providing an insight into how they were intended to play
within the game ... nobody loses !!

Any thoughts ..........................

This is exactly what almost all unit creators do, many even includes a Civiliopedia text, and a readme on how to install it.

Same thing with leaderheads, we call them leaderheads because that is what they are most often. And with the right extra stuff and work they become a civ.

When you download a Leaderhed you often get an entire civ, they give you a City List, a Great Leader List, Civ Leader name, and Leaderhead graphics, suggested UU, maybe even a graphic file for that unit. etc...

 

[Homunculus]

wow looks excelent!

 

[Ossric]

I don't know if it has been said before but you can make new types of units with this. If you make one containing 3 archers for example, you can also make one with 5 that has an higher attack&defense strenght..

 

[Kryten]

Yes Ossric,
Not only do the normal 'standard' Civ3 units look better, but by combining different figures, or changing the number of figures, or just by changing the formation, we can have lots and lots of new units.

See the preview on page 4 of this thread.

 

[Erik Mesoy]

Bumpo
:worshp: Kryten :worshp: Kryten :worshp: Kryten :worshp: Kryten :worshp: Kryten :worshp:

 

[Kryten]

Thank you Erik Mesoy, but I think you got it wrong.
It should be....
:worshp: Steph :worshp: Steph :worshp: Steph :worshp: Steph :worshp: Steph :worshp:

 

[mrtn]

You're both wrong, it should be:
:worshp: Kryten :worshp: Steph :worshp: Kryten :worshp: Steph Kryten :worshp: Steph :worshp:

 

[matt_hogan02]

Moderator Action: I'd like to say welcome to CFC, but when your first post is pure spam, I can't really bring myself to say it.

If you want to join in discussions, that is great. But please do so constructively. --Padma
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889