A What if: WWI Reversed

[aronnax]

Imagine that somehow in a a major battle, somehow, Britian's Navy was completed destroyed and the combined French-British army anhilated. Britian is under strict blockade and France overran. Both nations are on the verge of destruction and chaos. The US never came to the help, never showed their slight lean for the Allies.

Anyway, soon the Allies offer peace terms to the Central powers and the Treaty of Versailles (reversed) was drawn out.

Now, France, Britian, Russia and its Allies are now forced to give in to any demands made and just like how the Allies tored up Austria-Hungary, partitioned Ottoman Lands, ceded away German Lands and took away its colonial Empire.

So If criteria like that happened, how would you reshape the world?

My reshaping (Oh yeah Spain joins the Central Powers and invades Allies Portugal)




1. French-Comte was ceded to Germany
2. Romania was spilt and ceded into three lands for Bulgaria, Austria-Hungary and the Ottoman Empire
3. Bessberia and Moldova along with Crimea and Georgia, Azerbajian is ceded to the Ottoman
4. Greece is completely annexed to Ottoman
5. Libya is returned to the Ottomans along with British Possesions in the Red Sea and Persian Gulf.
6. Lands ceded over in the Treaty of Bresk-haisdfvk was spilt between Austria-Hungary and Germany
7. India was given indepedence other than some areas ceded to the winning Allies
8. British-French Colonial Lands are spilt
9. Some Lands in Russia Ceded to Japan to end the war with them

 

[Verbose]

Eastern Europe. You wouldn't get that much annexed German land. You would get a lot of German and Austrian supported/controlled buffer states. Finland should be among them I would think.

Japan might expand at the expense of China and Russia of course, but it would have to do it on its own, not as part of WWI, since Japan was an Entente ally. And considering the combined naval power of France, Japan and the UK, even if the Grand Fleet at scapa got sunk, I certainly wouldn't feel too confident about holding on to Indochina as Austria. Seeing how India must have been granted independance, the same should probably apply to Indochina and Burma. But Germany would probabaly hold on to Singapore for strategic reasons as indicated.

And if I was the Ottomans, why would I want Baluchistan? If Imperial Pan-Turanian ambitions are to be taken into account, the Ottoman empire should gain large swathes of land east of the Caspain sea, all the way up to China, from the Russians, since that's where a slew of Turklanguage speaking people are located. Alternatively, another set of Ottoman-dominated puppets should be set up there.

 

[aronnax]

The lands Germany and AH annexed are actually following the real lands that Russia lost when they decided to surrended. So I think it would remain the same.

Thats why I said, that Japan was given Vladistok to end the war with a new Ally for the central powers. I would imagine the Central Powers bribing Japan to their side with though about expansion in Russia and China.

Well, If was an Ottoman Sultan, and I could tap into the rich resources of India I would instead of the empty land of central asia. Turkey may want to have Turkic lands but not poor ones I assume.

 

[Verbose]

The lands Germany and AH annexed are actually following the real lands that Russia lost when they decided to surrended. So I think it would remain the same.

Thats why I said, that Japan was given Vladistok to end the war with a new Ally for the central powers. I would imagine the Central Powers bribing Japan to their side with though about expansion in Russia and China.

Well, If was an Ottoman Sultan, and I could tap into the rich resources of India I would instead of the empty land of central asia. Turkey may want to have Turkic lands but not poor ones I assume.

Well, this is still an era of various forms of nationalist politics. India is about as un-Turkish you'll get. And the old arch-enemy Persia is still in the way.

And come to think of it, holding on to all those Arab lands aren't going to be a picnic either. If you pull the British out of Suez, its going to shoot for independence. Asserting Ottoman control over more Arab lands, with a prosperous Egypt rallying the Arab cause, is going to be hell. Actually, I think the wise thing for all involved would be to release Egypt including the Sudan, and possibly try to hold the rest. The Ottomans had no real clout with Egypt since the 16th c. anyway, and certainly none at all through the 19th. And the there's Greece...

Actually, the more I ponder your map, the more I get the sense that it looks good on paper for the Ottomans, but in reality, they're getting screwed. There is no hope for them to hold on to all that land, with that many ornery nationalists hell bent on chucking them out. Even if they would be able to occupy Greece (I'm a bit dubious about that one), for how long would that last? Greece is a bit like Egypt here in the respect that it's not that much weaker than the Anatolian part of Turkey, from where the Ottomans have to draw the bulk of their resources from anyway. Having to pacify Greece and Egypt simultaneously would seriously overtax the Ottoman empire. They'd end up losing both inside a decade. Unless of course the Germans are willing to send huge expeditionary forces to subdue both places?

And parts of the Turkish leadership was about to get itself the lands of Central Asia already. Post-war, the Pan-Turanist hard-ass general Ismail Enver Pasha was killed fighting the Red Army, at Çeğen, which is in Tajikistan, in 1922.

Had the Ottomans come out of WWI victorious, he would have been one of the principal leaders. So yes, the Ottoman leadership in WWI would probably have looked to Central Asia much rather than India. If you latch on the Azeris and their capital Baku on the Caspian Sea, you have a port of transit to the Stans on the other side.

 

[aronnax]

Well I assume that the Ottomans would have emerge stronger from the War, and with German help put down the rebellions of Arabia. Egypt and Greece are a gray area for the Ottomans. Sure the rebellions, expescially in Greece will be common. However, the Ottomans have before tried to unify their empire though calling for the survival of the only Muslim Caliph. Possibly, like India with Hinduism, The Ottoman could have retain their empire through the pull of the last Muslim Caliph on Earth and with Islam. It would be the thing that unites their Empire and giving the Ottomans enough time to deal with the Christian Greeks. Also, autonomy could be arrange for egypt like before, and possibly Arabia. They would be like very liberated vassals to the Empire.

But here is a link to the map I got.
Instead of telling me, just show me

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/24/World_1898_empires_colonies_territory.png

Its 1898 so you have to change a few things like Libya and the Balkans and the Spanish-American War

 

[TheLastOne36]

The world would look very different. For example. soviet russia would be no more, No Polish-Bolshevik wars, etc.

My guess that only more war would come. No way would England, France and Russia allow this to happen, and i don't believe America would ignore all that had happened. And i 100% believe there's no way Poland wouldn't revolt

Japan would also continue to suck in more land into it's empire. I'm curios what would be happening in Australia.

 

[fing0lfin]

Well i think that the map above is pretty unrealistic. I think that if the Entante had lost the war:
1.Britain won't be a colonial empire any more. Some of the colonies will be annexed by Germany, some be the Ottoman empire and the rest will get independence.
2.France will most probably loose it's colonial possesions and some border regions
3.I think that a Polish state would exist, but with less territory(Prussia and Danzig to Germany and some lands to Austro-Hungary).
4. Ottoman empire won't occupy the whole Greece neither anything in Romania or Ukraine. It will probably get the most islands from Greece, but Greece will continue to exsist like a state.
5. Bulgaria will get Dobrudja from Romania, some border areas from Serbia and Macedonia. Serbia and Romania will continue to exist like states.
6.Austro-Hungary will get land from Romania, Italy, Poland and Serbia.

The future of the revolution is pretty unpredictable.
Ukraine would either be independent if the revolution is not succesfull ot part of the Soviet union.
Also the futre of the multi-national empires like Austro-Hungary and the Ottoman empire is not quite certain. At some point some if the nations from this empire may demand their independence and revolt.

But one really important question is when exactly this decisive battle happen.

 

[TheLastOne36]

But one really important question is when exactly this decisive battle happen.

Agreed. Did the battle like end the war? or just started the decline of the allies?

And if poland was independant, then all the lands controlled by austria, russia and germany which stilled had alot of polish inhabitants, would want to join the Polish state. There you go. 1 more state that's gonna make an impact in europe. What's next?

 

[bob bobato]

Completely irrelevant, but Portugal has the wrong flag. In WWI, Portugal had the same flag as it does now. The one shown hasn't been used since 1911. Unless Spain decided to reinstate the monarchy, of course.

And why should Spain invade Portugal,anyway? And why shouldn't Portugal withstand the invasion?

 

[chad187]

Whats the country in the center of the Arabian peninsula. Does the russain revolution still happen?

 

[TheLastOne36]

Whats the country in the center of the Arabian peninsula. Does the russain revolution still happen?

Nothing, Just desert. And no it does not happen.

 

[aronnax]

Well i think that the map above is pretty unrealistic. I think that if the Entante had lost the war:
1.Britain won't be a colonial empire any more. Some of the colonies will be annexed by Germany, some be the Ottoman empire and the rest will get independence.

I would think Britian would lose all its Colonies except for a few small islands and lands. But I doubt te Entetne would have touched Canada, New Zealand, Australia and South Africa since these were nearly their own indepedant state and was more prone to revolt and riot than say the Africans or Malays since they are well schooled in the idea of democracy
2.France will most probably loose it's colonial possesions and some border regions
It did lose some Border Regions to Germany and nearly all its Empire except for a small dersert bit.
3.I think that a Polish state would exist, but with less territory(Prussia and Danzig to Germany and some lands to Austro-Hungary).
Germany and Austria-Hungary would NEVER let that happen, even if it did revolt and try to secede, they would crushed. They did it before once, they would do it again
4. Ottoman empire won't occupy the whole Greece neither anything in Romania or Ukraine. It will probably get the most islands from Greece, but Greece will continue to exsist like a state.
Maybe, I just think the Ottoman would Annex Greece because William Kaiser did once threathen the Greek King with "punishment" after he refuse to join the war on the Entente side
5. Bulgaria will get Dobrudja from Romania, some border areas from Serbia and Macedonia. Serbia and Romania will continue to exist like states.
I doubt Serbia would exist. AH wanted it to pay and Bulgaria and Ottoman would wanted some of it lands. Romania may still exist but most likely as a seperated vassal/puupet state
6.Austro-Hungary will get land from Romania, Italy, Poland and Serbia.

AH got 2/5 of Romania, Of all East Lombardia and Half of Serbia. Thats about the same as yours
The future of the revolution is pretty unpredictable.
Ukraine would either be independent if the revolution is not succesfull ot part of the Soviet union.
Also the futre of the multi-national empires like Austro-Hungary and the Ottoman empire is not quite certain. At some point some if the nations from this empire may demand their independence and revolt.

But we are just talking about what happens after the war not anything else

But one really important question is when exactly this decisive battle happen.
Does it matter? I guess in Europe

10 characters....Can someone show me their version rather than tell?

 

[aronnax]

The world would look very different. For example. soviet russia would be no more, No Polish-Bolshevik wars, etc.

My guess that only more war would come. No way would England, France and Russia allow this to happen, and i don't believe America would ignore all that had happened. And i 100% believe there's no way Poland wouldn't revolt

I doubt Britian, France and Russia would be in the state to fight again. You saw how badly Germany suffered. Also, America was in the war because Germany attacked American shipping, If they did not, the American public will never agree to war. Poland would revolt, just that it would be crushed

Japan would also continue to suck in more land into it's empire. I'm curios what would be happening in Australia.

Agreed. Did the battle like end the war? or just started the decline of the allies?

And if poland was independant, then all the lands controlled by austria, russia and germany which stilled had alot of polish inhabitants, would want to join the Polish state. There you go. 1 more state that's gonna make an impact in europe. What's next?

Poland would never be independant. Germany and AH would crush the moment it trys, you have seen History work itself, its not going to just let it be free, nor is Poland strong enough to handle two victorius powers. I know Polish independance is important to you, but think logically

Whats the country in the center of the Arabian peninsula. Does the russain revolution still happen?

That country is the Saudi State http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Rashid

Also the revolution would had happen. Russia still had people who wanted to revolt and wanted change, they still hated losing the war and the Communist would still gain power and ask for unfair peace terms with Germany.

The real revolution happened also because they were losing.

 

[say1988]

Eastern Europe can be fairly accurately guessed, based on the Treaty of Brst-Litovsk.

In Western Europe, would likely remain the same, perhaps a few minor territory concessions along Germany's border.

The British and French Empire would be torn apart. The Dominions would likely have remained independent. While the rest divided between the victorious countries, with perhaps some given to neutrals (i.e. US).

The Turks would have held everything they could maintain control of militarily.

It all really depends on when and how the war was won. If the was was won in 1915, then things would be completely different from a victory in 1917 (things such as the Communists revolution and the Arab Revolt, etc..).

 

[xerexs]

Mabye to make it more interesting I heard Mexico and Germany were talking about Invading the U.S. to make the U.S. get into the war and return Mexico would get most of the southern states like Texas, New mexico and Arizona.

 

[say1988]

That was never going to happen. Sure Germany tested the waters, but the Mexicans were never going to go for it. They had no chance anyways. The only effect it would have is that it would have kept the Americans from sending too much of their army to Europe.
Unfortunately this was also one of the keys to the American declaration of war, along with unrestricted submarine warfare destroying US shipping, once the British revealed the Zimmerman Telegram.

The point is, that although Germany looked into getting Mexico to declare war on the US, Mexico wasn't up for it.

 

[Adler17]

The Germans would have tried to get Mittelafrika (Belgish Congo, Angola, German South West Africa, German East Africa) with perhaps French Congo and parts of French Central Africa. Marocco, too. Most likely France would have lost some parts of Lorraine still under their control and would have to tolerate the destruction of some forts like Verdun. Also a temporary occupation of strategic places is possible until reparations are paid.
Britain might lose not too much as it was hoped to have them not as eternal foe. The Ottomans however might have tried to get Egypt back.
Greece entered the war not until 1917 and in this timeline a Greek entry is highly unlikely.
Japan would have lost their conquests of the German islands in the Pacific, but might in contrast be allowed to take a chunk of China (Manchuria) totally.
In the East Poland, the Baltic states, Finland, Ukraine, Armenia, Georgia and perhaps some other parts of the Russian empire would become independent. Poland infact became independent in 1916! These states were formed to become allied buffer states. And considering the Russian occupation all of them would have agreed to an alliance with Germany and Austria. Perhaps the Baltic states might have joined Germany as states with many autonomy.
Austria would have prevented their empire from falling apart and forming a triple monarchy with the Slavians as third realm within the empire.
Serbia might have to pay a huge sum of reparations to Austria but would stay independent.
Russia would have lost much of the empire and the Czar would have to resign or make massive reforms. A bolshevistic Russia is not likely though, but possible. However then the German armies would have smashed them.
Also Germany would have founded a kind of German lead EU with Austria, the Benelux countries, France, the Baltic states, Finland, perhaps also Italy and the Balcan countries. From this block a real EU might have evolved.
I forgot Italy. Well, they might have lost the Dodecanese to the Ottomans and perhaps Libya or Somalia, too.
A last problem was Poland. As Poland demanded also lands from Lithunia, Ukraine, not to speak about Germany and Austria, the Polish might not be very favourable with the Germans. However the Polish already got their state and that would not be redone.

Adler

 

[Arwon]

Ireland would get its independence without a doubt. It'd be a total victory and indepence, no Anglo-Irish Treaty, no special provisions for Northern Ireland.

The post war situation in the UK is anyone's guess. Defeat and starvation led to revolution in Germany and the end of the monarchy. Why wouldn't that be a possibility in the UK too? You might end up with the Windsors reigning over their dominions from Canada, while not having any power in the UK.

Regarding Australia and New Zealand, you'd very quickly see them looking to America (or even Germany) for help containing the Japanese threat. Foreign policy of the dominions would, fairly simply, stop mirroring that of the UK which could no longer protect them. This happened in the real world when the Japanese took Singapore in 1942. Combined with the possible end of the monarchy you could see Australia and New Zealand becoming republics as befitting their desired new ties with the United States, even if the Windsors did escape.

I think, Aronnax, you might have overestimated Germany's ability to make claims in the Pacific even if they won in Europe. Germany's world wide power projection was not as strong as the UK's and victory in WW1 wouldn't change that over night. In particular given that Australia was an independent nation which is NOT starving or threatened in this situation, I can't see Australia agreeing to do anything more than give back German New Guinea since it had taken it right at the start of the war. I assume the Solomon Islands and so forth would be transferred to Germany, but Papua was very much within the Australian orbit rather than merely the British. I think it'd become an Australian mandate just like it did in the real world.

 

[Arwon]

Oh and the German-Indian conspiracies against the Raj would have stood a dcent chance of suceeding and leading to early Indian independence too.

 

[Azkonus]

Ottomans would rather like to have Balkans (Bulgaria, Serbia, Bosnia etc..) than Somalia or Sudan.
Yemen is important so it is good to keep it.