The Victory Requirements: A Good Concept that Ultimately Forces Narratives

[Krikkit1]

The science one in exploration is really weird. whats 40 yields on a single tile got to do with science? So a player who is the science leader, reached the end of the tech tree, but doesnt have more than 30 yields doesnt get a single legacy point? Just repeating the codex thing for mastery would have been better. I can see how the tech tree makes it possible to achieve these numbers, but civics and specialists will be important too and those have nothing to do with science.

It seems like they took the "yield porn" trend from Civ VI and made it an actual win condition.

There are specific techs that allow you to place extra specialists on a tile.
Each specialist multiplies the adjacency bonuses of the buildings on the tile (max of 12..2 buildings 6 adjacency each although most tiles will be lower)

so at max adjacency 3 specialists will get you 48 yield…and the main way to get extra specialists in a tile in age 2 seems to be getting techs (I wouldn’t be surprised if the Future tech gives +1 specialist limit…for this age only)

 

[Seek]

Each specialist multiplies the adjacency bonuses of the buildings on the tile

Source? I wasn’t aware this had been talked about with any specificity. Every screenshot I recall with a specialist growth event is only adding about 2 sci and 2 culture.

 

[Krikkit1]

Source? I wasn’t aware this had been talked about with any specificity. Every screenshot I recall with a specialist growth event is only adding about 2 sci and 2 culture.

check exploration stream when they cover the science victory…I’ll check when I can
-about 52-55 minutes in they talk about the science victory and how the specialists enhance the adjacencies

 

[Leucarum]

So I am definitely curious how the exploration age tracks will feel in practice... The cultural/religious track feels like the odd one out. I suspect having variety in the available reliquary beliefs will make this track feel more fun in the long term. It's the opposite of the "forced narratives" to some extent as you'll be able to pick your poison (then have to live with it). If religious gameplay doesn't let it down, I could see this being the "gold star" of victory conditions in terms of being fun.

But in general the other victory tracks feel more prescriptive than the antiquity era ones. I think that's maybe a fairer phrase than a forced narrative. They are more caveated and precise... And while it's understandable that half the exploration era tracks rely on exploring the map... Maybe they have made them overly specific?

 

[Seek]

check exploration stream when they cover the science victory…I’ll check when I can
-about 52-55 minutes in they talk about the science victory and how the specialists enhance the adjacencies

Hmm, Carl says specialists "boost" adjacencies a couple times and Ed says they "help" adjacencies at one point, but neither of them described how they do so mechanically.

I expect it will be additive and not multiplicative as you described above. For example, if you have a Quarter with two late-exploration age buildings with 5 base yield and 4 adjacency yield, with a multiplicative effect from specialists you'd only need two to reach 40 yield ((8 x 2 x 2) + 10 = 42) whereas if additive, it would require 4 specialists (8 + 8 + 8 + 8 + 10 = 42) which seems more in line with what we've seen in the tech tree.

Edit: For completeness' sake, here is the section from the dev diary (sadly, quite vague as well):

Specialists return in Civ VII, but with a greater significance. Allocating Population to Urban tiles creates Specialists, who provide base Science and Culture yields while consuming Food and Happiness. They also amplify adjacency bonuses of their tile, making them vital for maximizing your City's potential. Deciding how to balance the benefits they bring with the resources they consume is a critical part of efficient City management.

Edit 2: More digging: at 1:25:04 of the exploration stream, Carl places a specialist on a bazaar/market quarter, adding 1.5 gold, 2 sci, and 2 culture to the tile. Other potential specialist spots just gave 2 sci and 2 culture, as all the rest of the buildings in the city were from the antiquity age and thus no adjacencies. The bazaar had an adjacency of 3 (was placed at 47:24) so specialists have either a 1.5x modifier on adjacencies, or add a half yield per adjacency. Of course there are policies and other effects that could modify this later as well.

 

[Krikkit1]

Hmm, Carl says specialists "boost" adjacencies a couple times and Ed says they "help" adjacencies at one point, but neither of them described how they do so mechanically.

I expect it will be additive and not multiplicative as you described above. For example, if you have a Quarter with two late-exploration age buildings with 5 base yield and 4 adjacency yield, with a multiplicative effect from specialists you'd only need two to reach 40 yield ((8 x 2 x 2) + 10 = 42) whereas if additive, it would require 4 specialists (8 + 8 + 8 + 8 + 10 = 42) which seems more in line with what we've seen in the tech tree.

Edit: For completeness' sake, here is the section from the dev diary (sadly, quite vague as well):


Edit 2: More digging: at 1:25:04 of the exploration stream, Carl places a specialist on a bazaar/market quarter, adding 1.5 gold, 2 sci, and 2 culture to the tile. Other potential specialist spots just gave 2 sci and 2 culture, as all the rest of the buildings in the city were from the antiquity age and thus no adjacencies. The bazaar had an adjacency of 3 (was placed at 47:24) so specialists have either a 1.5x modifier on adjacencies, or add a half yield per adjacency. Of course there are policies and other effects that could modify this later as well.

Thats what I meant by multiplicative effect

(1+# of Specialists)*Base Adjacency= Total adjacency yields

Now you could also have that as each specialist gives +100% to adjacency… but a flat % of adjacency per specialist rather than a flat amount per specialist.

** it could instead be (1+specialists/2) aka +50% per specialist as well, or some other number used… each specialist adding one full adjacency would be simplest, but might be too easy.

just saw above so looks like it is 50% per specialist…at least at one point
(and an additional +4)

so…2 base 5, adj 4 buildings

base=10
adj=8
each specialist=4(cult+sci)+4(adj boost)=8

so 3 specialists gives 24

for a total of 42
you can reach 2 specialists per tile with the education tech
reaching 3 is probably not too hard.

It maybe harder to get that ~8 total adjacency in 5 separate tiles

 

[chaosprophet]

The science one in exploration is really weird. whats 40 yields on a single tile got to do with science? So a player who is the science leader, reached the end of the tech tree, but doesnt have more than 30 yields doesnt get a single legacy point? Just repeating the codex thing for mastery would have been better. I can see how the tech tree makes it possible to achieve these numbers, but civics and specialists will be important too and those have nothing to do with science.

It seems like they took the "yield porn" trend from Civ VI and made it an actual win condition.

I took it to be a nod to the importance of specialists. As in, you can't really achieve these yields without focusing on tall growth + specialists, and so it rewards civs who prefer internal progress over external. My guess is you won't be the science lead unless you invest in growth and specialists, but I'm not sure we've seen enough to be sure.

I'm also guessing that the mastery techs on exploration are ones that really help in adding extra yields and or effect for specialists. Which would mean on exploration, rather than just researching stuff (obtaining the masteries) for exploration you need to research them and make those effects into reality. It may also be a step in what modern scientific victory may be. If it is similar to previous games as some kinda of space project, you not only need to research them fast, but also have the infrastructure to make the space project.

 

[vorlon_mi]

Whew! Now, I need to watch the Exploration Age stream. I am following (mostly) the discussion here.

My only concern here is the UI. In Civ6, I found it really confusing to know whether I was making good progress towards the culture/tourism victory condition... just holding my own.... or falling behind. If one or more Civ7 victory conditions are going to depend on complex formulae for calculating yields to give legacy points, then I want a really clear UI to tell me that 1) Yes, you're making progress or 2) this other leader is ahead of you.
I really REALLY don't want to need a spreadsheet open to track my progress towards victory / victories.

 

[Josephias]

I tend to concur with the main OP idea: " Antiquity Age because they felt generic enough to be applicable to the history of any civilization. But with the Exploration age having you gain points from conquering land on foreign continents alone or having treasure fleets bring you stuff from your colonies it more or less making it so".

Not as much as the rest of civs not being balanced, as more "isolationist" civs we have seen tend to have benefits towards pop building/specialists (which is the science path, that the others have no advantage for). I'm confident they did their balancing there... that does not mean each victory path is balanced, but that any civ may be better at some and worse at others. In especific cases (as mentioned Mongolia, victory paths are even adjusted for intended gameplay).

More than a focus on western civilizations path, I see these two victory paths narrowed by the emphasis they want to put in Navy: you need to cross and fight in the seas for this to happen, and that would force you to use ships more. For me, these cultural paths could have done as well historically by defining "distant lands" in your landmass (see the case of Holy Land for the Normans, or the Incan expansion along all the Andean chain (south and north points are pretty "distant"). Even considering the priced spiced that sparked sea exploration were actually in the same Eurasian/africa landmass (Columbus did not intend to find a new continent, he intended to reach the other end of its landmass by going the other way). Treasure fleets could / should have included "treasure caravans" on land.. but that would have not forced you to go on the seas (than more that a forced "narrative" is a forced use of a game feature (naval gameplay) to comply with two of the legacy paths




And on this:

The science one in exploration is really weird. whats 40 yields on a single tile got to do with science? So a player who is the science leader, reached the end of the tech tree, but doesnt have more than 30 yields doesnt get a single legacy point?

Mecanically what said there by Krikkit1. Thematically, I'd say during the exploration era science was mostly practical, and the difference between low-efficient civs/empires and high-efficient empires (and "cultured" cities and iliterate rural lands, so at exploration age, the same way that culture is tied with religion, science is tied with growht and efficiency. (and in the same way, in the ancient age culture is tied with wonder production - empires legacy)

There are specific techs that allow you to place extra specialists on a tile.
Each specialist multiplies the adjacency bonuses of the buildings on the tile (max of 12..2 buildings 6 adjacency each although most tiles will be lower)

so at max adjacency 3 specialists will get you 48 yield…and the main way to get extra specialists in a tile in age 2 seems to be getting techs (I wouldn’t be surprised if the Future tech gives +1 specialist limit…for this age only)