A Wild Idea

[mythusmage]

I know that Firaxis is not about to let Civ III go, but I thought I'd make the following proposal anyway, to see if anyone here and at Firaxis might be interested.

We'll call the project Civilization III: Reformation. The purpose being to essentially rewrite Civ III from top to bottom. With the following goals in mind:

1. Integrate Vanilla, Conquests, and Play the World. Basically, with Civilization III Complete you're really getting three games, Civ III: Vanilla, Civ III: Conquests, and Civ III: Play the World. Integrated you would have a Civ III you could play alone or with others.

2. Standardize how the game works, how it does things, across platforms. I have heard that Civ IV works to some degree the same way on Windows and Mac. Write Civ III so it does the same thing. What it comes down to is, write Civ III: Reformation for the Mac, then port to Windows. Because the Mac OS is so persnickity it means anything written for it has to be done with care for the platform's peculiarities. Porting to Windows then should be a breeze.

2.5. Note that we are talking about a new edition of Civ III, so keep the engine and stuff like that.

3. This would be a voluntary effort. Firaxis would have to make the source code for Civ III available, in return anybody working on the project would need to sign an NDA and abide by it. People could be spending hundreds of man hours on this in return for no reward. Think of it as an informal internship.

4. Both the Windows and Mac versions would come with an editor. As a consequence all scenarios would come as biq files.

I have more ideas having to do with how the directory would be structured, what would be hard coded, and other stuff. This is just my thinking on the matter and my solicitation of ideas from you.

 

[vmxa]

One of the reason people have PC and not Mac is so they can play all the games. One of the reason many games are not designed for MAC is it is a very small part of the market. This is partial the reason it has so few issues with virus, not worth the trouble of the people that lioke to do that sort of thing.

They have no reason to give up the code and they won't. MAC users can run in window mode and play.

 

[mythusmage]

You have made it clear why you wouldn't participate in the project. But please don't discourage others who would like to give it a shot.

 

[grumbler]

You should probably read this thread.

 

[Theov]

Ehm.
Why?

 

[grumbler]

Ehm.
Why?

Ehm, if that's aimed at me:
Or more explicitly , because the thread a) shows the idea to redesign Civ3 using a team of volunteers under NDA has been proposed to Firaxis before and b) they utterly shot down the idea.

So mythusmage's third point is a no-go, rendering the rest impossible.

(BTW mythusmage, sorry to rain on your parade like this , but I thought it would be better to mention these things before everyone gets all invested in the idea, only to have to find out the 'bitter truth' later)

 

[timerover51]

I know that Firaxis is not about to let Civ III go, but I thought I'd make the following proposal anyway, to see if anyone here and at Firaxis might be interested.

We'll call the project Civilization III: Reformation. The purpose being to essentially rewrite Civ III from top to bottom. With the following goals in mind:

1. Integrate Vanilla, Conquests, and Play the World. Basically, with Civilization III Complete you're really getting three games, Civ III: Vanilla, Civ III: Conquests, and Civ III: Play the World. Integrated you would have a Civ III you could play alone or with others.

2. Standardize how the game works, how it does things, across platforms. I have heard that Civ IV works to some degree the same way on Windows and Mac. Write Civ III so it does the same thing. What it comes down to is, write Civ III: Reformation for the Mac, then port to Windows. Because the Mac OS is so persnickity it means anything written for it has to be done with care for the platform's peculiarities. Porting to Windows then should be a breeze.

2.5. Note that we are talking about a new edition of Civ III, so keep the engine and stuff like that.

3. This would be a voluntary effort. Firaxis would have to make the source code for Civ III available, in return anybody working on the project would need to sign an NDA and abide by it. People could be spending hundreds of man hours on this in return for no reward. Think of it as an informal internship.

4. Both the Windows and Mac versions would come with an editor. As a consequence all scenarios would come as biq files.

I have more ideas having to do with how the directory would be structured, what would be hard coded, and other stuff. This is just my thinking on the matter and my solicitation of ideas from you.

1. There is a group that has been trying to get the source code from Firaxis for several years, with no success whatsoever. I do not anticipate Firaxis ever releasing the source code.

2. You are correct that a scenario written for a Mac is going to run with no problems on a Windows machine, however, running a scenario produced on a Windows box on a Mac is always going to be a toss up, because of the differences in the way the OS handle file structures.

3. There was a very buggy editor included with the Macsoft version of the Vanilla Civ3 game that I have. I am not sure if that could be used as a basis for a Mac editor or not, depending on who holds copyright to it. The best bet would be to port Steph's editor to the Mac, but that would still leave you without a map editor. I have checked, and there is no C# emulator available for the Mac.

One of the reason people have PC and not Mac is so they can play all the games. One of the reason many games are not designed for MAC is it is a very small part of the market. This is partial the reason it has so few issues with virus, not worth the trouble of the people that lioke to do that sort of thing.

They have no reason to give up the code and they won't. MAC users can run in window mode and play.

This may surprise you, but Apple is the second-largest seller of PCs around, exceeded only by Dell. With that and the number of Windows boxes being run on Linux, the Windows operating system is not nearly as ubiquitous as it once was.

As for Mac users running in Windows mode, that does require them to obtain in some manner a copy of Windows XP or Windows 7 and have a Mac with the Intel chip. I would only wish Windows Vista on my worst enemy. For users of older Macs, such as myself, that is not an option. The Civ3 Complete version for the Mac includes the basic game, Play the World, and Conquests, and you can play any of the three games. The lack of an editor is the major difference between the Mac and Windows versions.

 

[mythusmage]

Ehm.
Why?

Why not?

It would give wild computer geeks something to do. Wild computer geeks with nothing to do tend to get into all sorts of cyber scrapes. Think of what Windows would be like if Bill Gates and his crew had had something constructive to do.

It would give Firaxis a new product to sell. Or something they could scavenge for parts.

The trick is to convince Firaxis we're serious. Firaxis probably thought we weren't serious the last time.

So ... my recommendation is for Civ III modders to learn inside and out how the Mac works, and apply those lessons to their mods and add ons. In short, mod for the Mac, then play on Windows. I know some people won't go for this idea, but doing this would show Firaxis we are serious.

One more thing, stay in touch. Inform Firaxis of our plans. Have plans for Firaxis to study. Produce product under those plans and maintain a consistent standard of quality. But above all else communicate with Firaxis and be persistent.

There are my thoughts. Yours?

 

[Snarkhunter]

Why not?

It would give wild computer geeks something to do. . . .
One more thing, stay in touch. Inform Firaxis of our plans. Have plans for Firaxis to study. Produce product under those plans and maintain a consistent standard of quality. But above all else communicate with Firaxis and be persistent.

There are my thoughts. Yours?

I don't see the slightest incentive for Firaxis to cooperate with this in any way, shape, or form. They literally get nothing out of this proposal. and in fact, no matter how careful the would-be re-creators are, it means Firaxis losing control of part of its franchise. No reputable businessman this day and age would ever agree to that, no matter how innocuous sounding, because no one can accurately estimate the potential being given up. from Firaxis' POV, sure, they've given up on III. . . but who's to say 4 or 5 years from now someone in the company won't get a wild hair & convince the top brass to return to it, either directly or as the basis for CIV V or CIV VI or CIV VII, etc?

You want to do this? Then you gotta do it the old-fashioned hacker way: get a disassembler, deconstruct the code, figure out how it works, then put it back together again. . . and don't tell anyone what you've done (-:

kk

 

[Fiddlin Nero]

The only thing that would make this kind of effort worthwhile is developing an AI worth the name. I can't imagine getting organized well enough to do the job any better than what's there now, pitiful as that is.

 

[Turner]

Civ1 has been out for sixteen years, and that source code hasn't been released. Civ2 has been out for over ten years, same story. It's highly unlikely that the source code will be released, ever.

You've also got to understand the relationship this site has with Firaxis. Several of the moderator staff have been tapped as beta testers for both Civ3 and Civ4. Several of the modders of this site as well. I believe even one of the Civ3 modders was hired to work on Civ4. So it's not like we're some offbeat fan site that is trying to get the source code released. We have a good relationship with them, and they felt it was in their best interest to not release the source code.

I'm not saying that your ideas aren't good. I'm not saying they're not without merit. But let's be realistic. There's not a whole lot of chance of them being implemented in Civ3.

There is, however, a place where you could get your ideas across, and have them received with less pessimism. There is a FreeCiv project over at sourceforge, and it's open source. If you've got the skills they need, you could help develop it. I would suggest looking into that project and seeing what you can do to help there.

You've also got to understand.... there's a lot of pessimism in this thread about this idea moving forward. But I can guarantee you that each and every one of the posters here would embrace such a project, and get excited about it if it came to fruition. We just don't think it's going to happen.

@FN - My understanding is that before the game was released, the AI was very good. Too good at higher levels, and they had to change it to what it is now to allow players to compete on the higher levels. That could be an urban legend tho.

 

[mythusmage]

Turner,

So I need to rethink the release of the source code. Instead of a general release, a limited release to those involved in the project who have signed a binding NDA. That is, only those who have signed on to the project, and signed the NDA, would have access to the source code. And only those with experience in coding and in Civ III modding would even have the chance to sign any NDA. Schlemiels like me would get no where near the source code.

Firaxis wants security, we provide that security.

 

[Turner]

Firaxis will not release the source code. Period. If Steph and the team of modders couldn't do it, you have very little chance of success.

If you truly have something to offer, and I'm not suggesting you don't, then look up the FreeCiv project and see what assistance you can provide. It's quite possible you can and will be able to contribute through that project. Is it Civ? No, not really. Would you talk about it here? In the right forum, you could. Would it be the project you outlined in the OP? Nope. But you'd be contributing something, and that sounds like your ultimate goal.

And if you do contribute, and you do help out with the FreeCiv project, then you'd have more of a leg to stand on vis a vis Firaxis and source code release. I still don't think they'd do that...but you never know.

 

[Theov]

Ehm, if that's aimed at me:

Nope.
If I would have aimed it at you I would've quoted you.

 

[Theov]

Why not?

It would give wild computer geeks something to do. Wild computer geeks with nothing to do tend to get into all sorts of cyber scrapes. Think of what Windows would be like if Bill Gates and his crew had had something constructive to do.

It would give Firaxis a new product to sell. Or something they could scavenge for parts.

The trick is to convince Firaxis we're serious. Firaxis probably thought we weren't serious the last time.

So ... my recommendation is for Civ III modders to learn inside and out how the Mac works, and apply those lessons to their mods and add ons. In short, mod for the Mac, then play on Windows. I know some people won't go for this idea, but doing this would show Firaxis we are serious.

One more thing, stay in touch. Inform Firaxis of our plans. Have plans for Firaxis to study. Produce product under those plans and maintain a consistent standard of quality. But above all else communicate with Firaxis and be persistent.

There are my thoughts. Yours?

Windows users don't care because they can play the game in windows already.
Mac users don't care because... they haven't done what you are suggesting already.
Firaxis don't care for because they released Civ 4 and surely are not looking back at Civ3.

Moderator Action: Warned - Language
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Snarkhunter]

Firaxis wants security, we provide that security.

No, Firaxis wants control--an entirely different thing. That is why the chances of ever getting the source code--legally--are microscopic. You'd probably have a better chance of persuading them to release an entirely new version based on C3 than of getting the code for it. But to do that you would have to understand their conception of where they want the franchise to go & who they want to appeal to.

kk