Aabra01: Training for Mid-level Micromanagers

[Phaedo]

Opening moves:

1. Move the worker to the BG
2. Settler where we are and make sure our citizen is working that BG (although it should be the default)
3. Start building a dinghy
4. As much as I love the Phil slingshot, I am inclined to be rather militaristic these days and would thus go for IW. Knowing where the iron is and early swords could go a long way towards securing the foundation we need for our civ.
5. Up that science slider to 100%

That's all I can think of at the moment for that first turn.
Question:
Are we allowed to see who we are facing (through the space race screen)?

As there will need to be discussion over the research path I thought I'd put my 2 cents in. As we are going for space, we want to focus on tech. The Phil slingshot does seem to address this most directly. However, at emperor we can still get the slingshot (although possibly not the republic gambit) with researching IW first. Moreover, if we end up being able to trade for writing for IW, we would still be online for the Rep sling with an effective unit as well.

We don't have any resources that we can immediately see. This doesn't really tell us much as there is so much we don't see but we are going to want/need resources and this will probably mean military conflict. The faster we get strong, the faster we get big. If we get big and efficient, the space race should be in the bag.

Having said all this. If we indeed do decide to go for writing. I would like to see us do the Rep sling to get as early a switch as possible.

 

[Bede]

Good, though conventional, thinking, so far.

If I were to consider Phaedo's way of Joy through Strength and an assiduous application of the pointy stick acquisition method to the knowledge inventories and land holdings of the neighbors an early Monarchy followed by a beeline to Communism for the end-game offers an interesting way to win.

I will reserve further comment until others have posted their thoughts.

 

[Phaedo]

It's true that it is conventional. Of course that is not necessarily a bad thing. The question is whether it is conventional because we don't know any other options or because the conventional approach has been judged as the most effective. Towards that end, it is probably helpful if we include our reasoning behind the choices we are advocating.

So here is how I see the situation. Our free techs give us two 2nd tier research possibilities. We will be able to get a number of 1st tier techs for a 2nd tier one. If we are going to ignore those advantages that's fine, but it should be for some purpose. Iron is the most important strategic resource for a long time in the game. Knowing where it is is important. I figure, the earlier we know where it is, the faster we can plan to secure it. Of course, the Phil gambit gets us free tech. As we are going for space, free tech seems to directly work towards that goal. Just to be clear, I am not necessarily lobbying for a "Joy of strength" policy (nice phrase Bede). However we will be in conflict with nearby civs and I just figure, the faster we secure our base, the faster we win. After we have the base, we wouldn't really need war at all.

Other options that could be possible are:
A quick archer rush (I personally have never tried this); a beeline to Monarchy for both government and trading benefits; and focusing on improvement techs (writing for Libs, currency for markets, etc), which would also have trade benefits.

Now, all the regular concerns aside, the purpose of this game is to focus on MMing right? I don't know if warmongering is the best way to focus on this really. Players tend to focus on the war and forget the management. A more peaceful approach may be more beneficial to our purpose. However, we do want to get big enough that specialist farms come into play. Once those farms are at size 5 or 6, I'm fine. I would like to know better about the actual growth and specialist assignment. This means we need an empire that is big enough to have a number of corrupt towns. We are going to need to expand and that will mean war.

At the end of the day, I don't care what path we decide to pursue. However, I REALLY care that the team is clear on the plan and how we intend to impliment it. It would also be nice if we could keep in mind the purpose of the TDG. Winning should be secondary (and will happen anyway if we are able to create a technically advanced and economically robust empire). Our goal is to learn better MMing skills, not merely win

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

Knowing where it is is important. I figure, the earlier we know where it is, the faster we can plan to secure it. Of course, the Phil gambit gets us free tech. As we are going for space, free tech seems to directly work towards that goal.

Now, all the regular concerns aside, the purpose of this game is to focus on MMing right? I don't know if warmongering is the best way to focus on this really. Players tend to focus on the war and forget the management. A more peaceful approach may be more beneficial to our purpose. However, we do want to get big enough that specialist farms come into play.

lurker's comment: Towards the space goal of the game,

Spoiler Space race strategy :

strictly speaking of that aspect, I find it most effective to go for the earliest republic you can possibly get, then get early pottery and literature, and trade those around. Make sure everyone gets its share of techs, and that the 2-3 faster researching civs get the gold feed from the smaller ones buying their techs. Research techs the AI doesn't go for, and cross your fingers that the AI wil research the other ones - they LOVE feudalism, nationalism, rocketry, gunpowder ...

Work peacefully towards knights, in a very very builder fashion, and mass knights whenever you can - around the time you would start universities as well. Do a lot of both the latter, conquer land (grasslands and flood plains), turn these into specialist farms. Conquer pyramids if you can. With these, you should be able to keep a steady but low military output and keep expanding for more and more beaker farms. Note that it is very very common to miss Copernicus' and Newton's even if you do a little prebuild. Get GOOD prebuilds for these wonders, they are worth it.

This is the strategy I found most effective for space. I challenged it on several aspects, notably the time at which you start conquering and the time you start your GA. Your GA is best used at the entrance of the MA, when you get knights and universities, or at the entrance of the IA, when techs are most expensive. Modern techs pose no problems because you have plenty of beaker farms by then. Starting to conquer earlier is too early, and cavalries can backfire two ways:
1- you get cavalries really early but you need to research the top techs as well and it takes a long time
2- you hit the IA with very few to no beaker farms and you hit several techs with a no-good beaker output.

And towards the MM training goal of the game, anything goes, really. Working on MM workss whatever you do, so long as you put the effort to work on the MM. Tautological on the sides here, but if you do it, you indeed do it.

 

[gmaharriet]

lurker's comment: Beorn, just curious from whom you got the quote on space race strategy. It's interesting to me, especially from the standpoint of the problem with going for cavalry early...something I've just recently begun to try.

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

lurker's comment: Oh I just wrote it, I just thought it was long and the last paragraph was most appropriate, so I spoilered it. The AI's go for the lower research path most of the time, so you're double-crossing the techs if you race through to cavalries as well yourself. It also means you don't have to rely on AI-luck to get these universities your F6 guy craves for. It certainly makes the difference between a 1350-1450 launch and a 1150-1250 launch.

Note that for any VC besides SS and Diplo, I'd go cavalries early, with very obvious motivations, and I don't see any further counter-argument, to someone just saying "let's get cavs and get the job done" with space in mind, than just my personnal experience. Depending on the situation, cavalries early just might be better in many games.

 

[gmaharriet]

lurker's comment: Oh I just wrote it, I just thought it was long and the last paragraph was most appropriate, so I spoilered it. The AI's go for the lower research path most of the time, so you're double-crossing the techs if you race through to cavalries as well yourself. It also means you don't have to rely on AI-luck to get these universities your F6 guy craves for. It certainly makes the difference between a 1350-1450 launch and a 1150-1250 launch.

Note that for any VC besides SS and Diplo, I'd go cavalries early, with very obvious motivations, and I don't see any further counter-argument, to someone just saying "let's get cavs and get the job done" with space in mind, than just my personnal experience. Depending on the situation, cavalries early just might be better in many games.

lurker's comment: I guess I've learned the game backwards from most people, starting with diplo and space, and just now focusing on domination. It does take a very different strategy, and your comments helped me understand the WHY of what I'm beginning to do. Thank you.

 

[Cyllus]

First off thanks Bede and any other lurkers/helpers for taking the time

I'd like to not use the Spaceship screen to find out what other civs we have out there. I don't view it as an exploit. I just personally like to find them on my own, should be fairly easy with this civ.

Research: After thinking too much about what to research I'm leaning toward going for Map Making first and even trying to get TGL. Writing asap then trade it for Pottery hopefully and get going on Map Making. With the TGL we'd almost certainly find the other continents with little (if any) losses to our exploring fleet. Also we could be settle on most of the Islands. I have yet to complete the Republic whip through any Emporer games and have given up on it (can it even be done I wonder?) After Map Making I'd go Lit then head for Republic. The AI seems to research Map Making and Lit towards the end of thier AA techs so we may be able to trade enough to get the cheap techs especially if we're the only ones who know every civ which by that point we could.

Opening Moves: Settle where we stand, coastal near the lake, send the worker to the BG to road then mine, then it'd matter what we see. We may need to irrigate from the lake North or West. That'd matter a lot as to what to do when the BG is taken care of.

Build Orders: Warrior to explore - Curragh - Warrior to fortify - Curragh. Of course this is tentative, who knows what will progress by that time. I would like to be able to trade as much as possible when we get techs.

Can we also stop the play to ask what to do when our gut says build a spearman now? I've never heard the "don't build any spearmen, ever" rule. Barbs are restless aren't they?

 

[Phaedo]

I have yet to complete the Republic whip through any Emporer games and have given up on it (can it even be done I wonder?)

Can we also stop the play to ask what to do when our gut says build a spearman now? I've never heard the "don't build any spearmen, ever" rule. Barbs are restless aren't they?

You can do the Rep slingshot at emperor, you just have to make sure to max your gold production (road before mine with the workers for example). You can certainly get a 1st or 2nd tier tech and still make it to Phil first.

As for spears, why bother. Give me some archers anyday. They cut down attacking Barbs and will take out any barb threat quite nicely. Don't wait for the barbs to attack you. Take them out first.

 

[SimpleMonkey]

lurker's comment: Personally, I would bypass IW and go straight up the tree to Republic. With a fleet of dinky boats out there, you should be able to max out your trade opportunities for other techs. IW is a high priority for the AI, so you can be sure that someone else is going to get it right soon. Trade for it and invest the beakers elsewhere. Or take it through pointy-stick reasearch. Better investment is in a path that the AI ignores. At this level you can afford to snag Code of Laws before Philo, while at DG you can't. At Deity I presume that you won't be beating the AI to any techs for quite a while.

As far as pointy-stick research goes, at this level you could go with an early, early military rush. Beating down just two AI cities with concentrated forces can get you a whole nest of techs. The danger is of course missing out on other priorites, mainly expansion.

Theodora has the capacity to become a research monster and queen of the tech tree by the early MA. Combine that with some significant takeover of your neighbors' territory, and you can take the victory condition of your choice.

EDIT: Agree totally with Beorn about the desirability of Cops and Newtons, especially if you can get them in the same city. Appropriate timing for prebuilds is crucial. As Theodora is scientific, you also have good odds for popping an SGL here and there. Just don't make that a necessary part of your strategy.

 

[Bede]

It seems that most of the gang has been heard from, including the peanut gallery. (Howdy BeF and nice analysis, there, and a big hug for Harriet, good to have you along for the ride. Listen closely to the lady with the cat, guys, she asks great questions.)

My assessment goes this way:

The visible land is gold and food poor, as there are no riversides to work and no food bonuses. The only 2g field is the lake, fortunately it doesn't require worker turns to get there. And there is only one visible bonus grass. Taken altogether that means a fast research start is not in the cards, and we are going to have to watch the commerce, population growth (and early happiness) closely. Can't let any gold coins get away and can't lose any food.

We do not start with Pottery, but have Alphabet, which means we can acquire Pottery and some cash easily if we get out there and meet the neighbors.

The Republic slingshot is probably out of reach with this start, not enough early commerce. That does not mean we should ignore the Philosophy gambit entirely, but going for Iron first (as Phaedo suggests and I concur) will require some canny trading and smart neighbors and a little different approach if we want to try for the Republic through Philosophy. And the issue with the Republic slingshot is not Philosophy first, it is learning Code of Laws before Philosophy. But Mapmaking is a good consolation prize, especially for a Seafaring nation.

In a longer term view, the critical phase of the game is the Middle Ages, as Beorn pointed out. The jump in tech costs at that point when the realm is not really ready for it can be painful. That will be eased somewhat by the Scientific trait (free tech on age change and cheap libraries) but will still be felt. The ideal situation to be in is 20 cities (Five strong core towns and 15 specialist farms) on the ground before the age change.

Here is how I would manage the opening -

Settle in place and start a dinghy. Citizen assigned to the bonus grass. Science to 100% on Iron Working. Worker to the bonus grass to build a road (commerce first) then a mine. The dinghy should set sail about turn 8. The mini map puts us in the middle of the continent, so either north or south will work. After the dinghy a warrior for MP duty. We will need to keep a gimlet eye on unit and building costs so I wouldn't build a fourth unit or a building until the commerce will support the maintenance. Second citizen should work the lake (2f2c), and the worker should be cutting a road through the forest NW. I want to save the trees for either a granary (when we learn Pottery) or the first settler but having the road there will make the chop go faster.

You get one content citizen at Emperor, so the second will be unhappy, watch for the growth turn and adjust the slider accordingly. The MP warrior should appear about the same time or shortly after, but setting the second citizen to working the 2g lake will keep the entertainment cost down to 10% instead of 20%.

Managing the forest chops is going to be important to get the best output. It takes 6 turns and the yield is 10 shields. Keep those numbers in mind.

@Cyllus - the Republic slingshot at Emperor is eminently achievable. You need a high commerce start. Riverside with at least one food bonus on the river. You also need Alphabet as a starting tech and the ability to drive science at 100% till you get there. Active trading is the third leg of the stool. Mostly for cash to feed the scientists while the slider keeps the people happy.

And Phaedo is right about the benefits of active defense. Spears have their role in Always War. Any other games they are as useful as temples.

Xposted with SimpleMonkey - howdy and welcome to the peanut gallery. While I agree with your assessment in general the commerce poor start makes the Republic slingshot chancier.

And now that I think about the detour through Iron Working (thanks for rattling the old brain SM) is not the best choice. Setting the research path to Writing at 100% makes better sense.

 

[Phaedo]

I'm learning already. I guess I didn't really assess the start position very well when I was planning. Thanks for the analysis from everyone

 

[Elephantium]

Research: Since we start with Alphabet, I'd say we have a good chance at pulling off the Republic slingshot. OTOH, I *always* go for that in my games, so I'd like to at least discuss some other options.

(Edit: Make that "we might have a chance at the Republic slingshot", based on Bede's comments.)

That said, I would research Writing at 100%.

Worker actions: The obvious first step is to road and mine the BG, but I'm not sure what to do after that. It kind of depends on the squares available from culture expansion.

The only choice for first tile worked is between the lake and the BG. The lake speeds our research, the BG speeds our production.

Based on food available, it will take 20 turns before our first Settler can be built. I see no reason to grow further before making any settlers; we won't have the food available to pump them out any faster. Given that, our options are:
* Citizen works the lake first and the BG second. Build the settler from the beginning, 10 shields in at size 1, then 20 shields in at size 2, settler production knocks us back to size 1. This is the worst choice and assumes no help from the worker.
1. Citizen works the BG first and the lake second. Build a warrior, then the settler. With two SPT, the Warrior is done in 5 and the settler in 15 to hit our 20 turn target. Again, this ignores the worker's contribution.
2. Two warriors, then a settler. If we road first, the mine should be done at turn 10, giving 3 SPT. That's a 10-turn settler, done at turn 20 when we grow to size 3.
3. Mine first, then road. The mine finishes at turn 6 for 3 SPT. Make a curragh first thing, and it finishes on turn 7. Make a warrior second, and he finishes on turn 11 (two shields wasted, ugh).
4. Make a warrior first, curragh second. Warrior finishes on turn 5, curragh finishes on turn 11 - again, two shields wasted.
Then we get our Settler at turn 21.

Right now, I'm going to suggest going option 4. The curragh is three times faster than the warrior for exploring, giving us a very quick look at our coastline and potentially early AI contacts. On the downside, the curragh can't pop goody huts or kill barbs.

Overall, food is the most important output for the early game. With lots of shields available, our food is the only thing that limits our settler production.

 

[gmaharriet]

Managing the forest chops is going to be important to get the best output. It takes 6 turns and the yield is 10 shields. Keep those numbers in mind.

lurker's comment: Big hug returned to Bede from your "perennial student", and first question. On forests, isn't it 6 turns to road, but only 4 to chop?

 

[Bede]

Harriet is right on the chopping. so 4 turns to chop and 10 shields.

Elephantium is no Dumbo. His option 4 with a switch in the build order - curragh first then warrior would be my preferred opening. Getting a 3 move boat sailing the coastlines is worth more than the MP. A settler at turn 21 will be just about right. Managing the odd shield right now is less important than managing the odd gold piece so roading first then mining or any other action is the way to go.

 

[choxorn]

lurker's comment: Spears are useful if you don't have iron. But other than that, they aren't useful for much (Hoplites and NuMercs are, though)

 

[Elephantium]

Harriet is right on the chopping. so 4 turns to chop and 10 shields.

Elephantium is no Dumbo. His option 4 with a switch in the build order - curragh first then warrior would be my preferred opening. Getting a 3 move boat sailing the coastlines is worth more than the MP. A settler at turn 21 will be just about right. Managing the odd shield right now is less important than managing the odd gold piece so roading first then mining or any other action is the way to go.

Thanks

Building the road first changes the outcome a bit, though - curragh will finish on turn 8. That gives us 4/10 shields for the Warrior when the mine opens, meaning the warrior finishes on turn 12. Unless we pick up another shield somehow, our settler will finish on turn 22.

 

[mr_2_you]

seeing as i've read everyone's initial plans, this might sound repetitive:

1)settle in place, set science 100% towards iron working
2)begin road to bonus grass
3)build warrior=>warrior=>settler

 

[Bede]

Thanks

Building the road first changes the outcome a bit, though - curragh will finish on turn 8. That gives us 4/10 shields for the Warrior when the mine opens, meaning the warrior finishes on turn 12. Unless we pick up another shield somehow, our settler will finish on turn 22.

Just to make sure, but does your plan account for the shield on the production phase ("emphasize production" in the governor screen and the newly hatched citizen will work the forest for the inter-turn production phase) when we grow to three? If it does, good, you don't training wheels when it comes to micromanagement, if it doesn't then there is the shield you were looking for.

Comment to mr_2: two warriors will limit our exploratory wanderings to one slow (1 tile per move) wanderer. Seafaring curraghs are turbocharged at three tiles per move. The road to the stars is paved with contacts, so you need to meet them early and often.

 

[choxorn]

lurker's comment: Guys, Galleys move 3 squares. Curraghs move 2 squares!