about Bannor

[Blackmantle]

@ nadszyszkownik: Up to a certain level i have to agree but for different reasons.
I can imagine sufficient unstoppable strength of will also comming from unquestioning and fanatical devotion very well (which whould be reflected by controlling certain spheres and missing on others. Getting things like death or other necromantic magic whould represent the fallen bannor sort which also has been hinted at existing in the lore-forums).
Those guys whould just be the mages most fanatically devoted to Junil around. So devoted in fact that they can inspire Valor in everyone in the bannor army by mere presence and resurect even the dead heroes of the bannor. That might be enough to even convince the suspicious bannor that he adamantly works for junils cause otherwise Junil whouldn't allow them acess to such powers.


Also im rather certain you get the reason why armies stop attacking when Einon is present wrong.

It has more to do with his reputation as the honorable head of the elhoim order stemming from an old bloodline of powerful and compassionate protectors of Erebus which everyone (save perhaps the Infernals and the Sheaim) respects because of their actions / reputation / and personal aura (including even Cassiel) i belive.

Its just that not all Elhoim are like him or Ethne (they are the rulers not the tacticans or generals of their civ.). So wars happen.
But when he is around let alone intervenes (as seen in his entry, he may even stop his countrymen from attacking the infernals right after descecrating the honor of his order and the peace-agreement. Go figure how hard that whould be to stomach for a good-inclined civ according to FFHs alignment-spectrum ), everyone, no matter friend or foe (save for the infernals and the sheaim as mentioned already) whould be very shameful of large-scale bloodspilling. They whould only disgrace themselves then.

As a small example how his AI behaves in game i think he uses Gandhi's AI from Vanilla so you get the picture.

 

[BugReportage]

Pfft, Einion is one of the best candidates for summoning the Infernals!
He must've been poking around in the Infernal Grimoire trying to learn how to protect people from demons and summoned Hyborem by accident!

 

[Blackmantle]

That joke never gets old... (Happens in game as well reportedly. At least once i have also seen AV Elhoim (not converted to it by me) led by Einon and asking me to convert to the ways of the corrupted spirit. ).

Kaels take on the matter was something along the lines of they get tainted by the darker unique features they are tasking themselves with protecting. (like the sepulcher, the pyre and the likes.) Makeing such a scenario really possible. (Also fits the name of the game rather well. Even they can fall. Otherwise it whouldn't be dark fantasy.)


Einon still makes one heck of a decent ally even on rather high difficulties (and usually isn't even all that expansionist like others).

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Yeah, given how immunity to fear would devalue a spell that their Hero has I'm thinking that part should be dropped.


I'm undecided about blocking access to Archmages. I might just decide that Valor doesn't apply to all unitcombats (it definitely shouldn't be used to make the Bannor be able to get Archmages more easily than most civs). That would mean making not a racial promotion, but an "autoacquire" promotion like in FF or a second effect of the Guardsman promotion.


I've always hated the Valor spell. As it is now, I barely consider it worth being level 1, much less level 3 (with FF's changes it seems ok of level 2). In my version, Law III will definitely be Banish, an offensive spell that can outright kill demons (and maybe also undead, elementals, units using evil magic, and units of evil religions) but can be resisted (sometimes the banished units may just be transported to the Infernal Capital, and perhaps given a promotion that will hold them there until it wears off).



I just added Ring of Fire and Pillar of Fire spells for Bannor Order Priests, and am quite enjoying it.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

yay for banish, RoF and PoF! totally agreed that Valor is the lamest lvl 3 spell of them all

 

[thomas.berubeg]

how about instead of a unique Fortlike improvment for the bannor, thier cottages, villages, and hamlets provide a fortification bonus (do they still spawn crusaders when enemies approach?)

 

[Mailbox]

ITT people who don't know the difference between boring and underpowered

The Bannor strategy of "hordes of free generic melee units" lacks flash compared to a lot of the civs in the mod, but the substance is there. Demagog swarms supporting a normal army are very effective. And they can tech quickly up to that point because the demagogs rely on matured cottages to spawn - so you can spam them and favor tech over hammers, because eventually those cottages will double as barracks.

Completely agreed. The Bannor are great fun and powerful but I think it's ok if one civilization is vanilla.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Small issue on making the idea of making the Guardsman trait grant Valor. Traits can grant multiple promotions, but they must give them to units of the same unitcombat. Restricting Valor to Melee and Archers doesn't make a lot of sense. There could easily be a seperate Valor trait granting Valor to all the unitcombats but arcane, siege, and naval, but a civ can only have one civtrait. I never really liked Guardsman all that much, and the promotion can be purchased with experience now anyway, so I'm going to play around with the Bannor having the Valor instead of Guardsman.


I prefer unique forts to cottages/villages/hamlets, because those improvements only grow when worked and having self-defending forts would be best defending boarders further way from cities. It would also require adding more unique improvements.

I don't see a mechanism for villages (etc) to spawn defenders when enemies approach anymore, although Crusades do sill make Town randomly spawn Demagogues and demote to Villages. (Actually, when I looked though this it appears that spaces were used instead of tabs in some lines, so doCrusade should be broken. However, I used it in my last game and it seemed to work properly.)


Xienwolf really needs to make it so that you can have promotions and civilizations be prereqs and blocks for build orders. He also needs to look into implementing some Jeckel-like improvements for forts, like making improvements be prereqs for other improvements, distance requirements, and ownership.. (Of course if he doesn't, then I'll probably force myself to and so my modmod would include such features and improvements with their own cultural boarders.)

 

[Trieste]

Kael has stated that in the original design for the Bannor they would have the ability to build lots of special fort like improvements that help defend against evil civs. I think this has pretty much been abandoned, but it might be reconsidered soon. When I get time to mod again I think I'l try to implement it. The ability to plant forts far away from your cities and have them spawn defenders whenever enemies get near seems useful.

A fort that autocasted the Sanctify spell if there was hell terrain within a tile would be be handy and fit will with the lore. Maybe within 2 tiles for castles and 3 for citadels with the range of sanctify also expanded to 2 and 3.

 

[zup]

But everybody wants hell terrain! Sheut Stones and Nightmares are that good.

 

[Psycho_Ivan]

Unique forts that come pre-garrisoned? That sounds... really cool. And depending on what level the fort is, you could have units that start in it have the ability to attack enemies that come within there walking range, and if this were possible, then have the units automatically teleported back so that it wouldn't be a free way to gain new units without building them.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

A fort that autocasted the Sanctify spell if there was hell terrain within a tile would be be handy and fit will with the lore. Maybe within 2 tiles for castles and 3 for citadels with the range of sanctify also expanded to 2 and 3.

I'd add that too, but that was supposed to be for the Elohim. (Elohim Chancel-forts would sanctify and heal, while Malakim Citadel of Light-forts would do direct damage.)

 

[Mailbox]

What's the point of good civilizations having protection from hell terrain? It only helps if they switch away from Good alignment.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Well, forts aren't just built within your borders. Building a ring of special forts around Infernal territory would prevent hell from ever extending beyond there.

Also, I was thinking of getting rid of this immunity at very high AC, and of making some evil units/spells raise the plot counters of the land they are on so that evil civs can forcefully spread hell.


(Note that for the sake of the processor the improvements effects would only kick in when a unit moves near the improvement. I guess I could add another block elsewhere to just stop kepp from spreading near Chancels though.)

 

[Trieste]

It would be awesome to see the Elohim or Bannor valiantly defending border forts against a demonic horde to preserve the last patch of non-hell on Erebus.

The other option would be to give the forts to everyone but AV civs to prevent adept micromanaging - though you could just kill hyborem I guess. Sanctify forts for everyone would slow the spread of hell a lot, but MC your idea of evil spells raising the counters would help to even it out. Maybe instead of forts life 3 could have another spell that would make a razeable tile improvement that autocasts sanctify in a 1 tile radius.

 

[stp]

From excerpts of Kael's D&D games we know that what separates an Archmage from a mage is not skill, but an unstoppable strength of will. They set their mind on something, and refuse to let anything, include atrocious violations of laws and morals, get in their way. They don't typically go out of the way to do harm, but they would murder the righteous without remorse if it helps to further their goals.

If I recall that notes correctly, it was an Archmage instructing one of the characters of Kael's D&D campaign on how to become an Archmage. So it is not necessarily an absolute truth.

 

[onedreamer]

btw, Falamar and Sabathiel aren't the only charismatic leaders.

 

[Fenboy]

While from a lore perspective preventing Bannor from training Archmages may make perfect sense, the Bannor's main function in the game is as a 'basic' civilisation for new players to get to grips with FFH's unique gameplay. Magic of course is a very big part of that, and something tricky enough for a new player to get a handle on as it is. Removing Archmages from the Bannor would seriously derail that learning curve.

 

[onedreamer]

the Bannor's main function in the game is as a 'basic' civilisation for new players to get to grips with FFH's unique gameplay.

Is it ? I honestly doubt it. Instead I think that Bannor are just your regular "human faction" which doesn't have a lot of strange oddities in its background, that's all. Now let's not pull out urban legends like this:

Proposals:

1) Few Bannor unique buildings that give more free XP. Orc theme is hordes of cheap and weak units. Bannor should be also hordes but of more expensive and promoted ones. I think this would definitely work.

Where are the hordes of cheap and weak units ? The only difference in cost and strength for orc units is the mounted line (Ogres) which happens to be MORE expensive than the other civs' counterpart...

 

[TheJopa]

Where are the hordes of cheap and weak units ? The only difference in cost and strength for orc units is the mounted line (Ogres) which happens to be MORE expensive than the other civs' counterpart...

Wardens building. Nuff said.

Also goblins, wolf riders..

Besides that is their theme, Kael's words.