I'm just getting a kick out of my fleet of spy-full transports roaming around and bribing the AI's ships away--especially making sure they become NONE. But I am wondering, what is the criteria for following through on the bribe. I.e. all the bribes cost more than just buying them yourself so how do you evaluate the cost to bribe? When is it too expensive to complete?
Ace's favorite naval vessel
- Thread starter mardukes
- Start date
Dark Ascendant
Darkness Ascending...
It depends on the location of the ship, the ship type and the cost. I bribe a ship if it's a threat and if it's cheap and building one myself would take too long and I have better things to build. It's really a question of when do I need this ship?
la fayette
King
http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum1/HTML/001678.html?36
This thread provides the answer to your question (and also to any question you might ask about diplomats and spies).
The thread was started by SlowThinker (and he did most of the work, but I killed thousands of spies testing sabotaging and other interesting activities of spies
)Two values when bribing: getting a unit without shield support, and saving time or production for higher-priority items, like caravans, wonders, or city improvements. No, wait, add: bribing a Barb unit to keep it from killing a defenseless city. As far as cost comparisons are concerned, Barbs are always good deals at 2xshield cost; other civs military units get more expensive the closer they are to their capital, but some games (like OCC) you absolutely HAVE to have that NONE Transport, Battleship or Engineer...
Barbs: always a good PRICE because you have to invest a turn to get the seed shields into the production bin to buy one yourself at 2xshield cost. But a good price is not always a good investment; opportunity cost, of course.
AI's: as they cost you more than 2x they are always at a higher price than the 2x you can do at home. But when is the PRICE a good VALUE? E.g. why spend 302 bucks for a cruiser that I can get for (IIRC) 159 and 2 turns?
So to focus the question, what is the value of NONE? what is the value of taking a unit out of the AI's hands? Is there any Civ2-super-secret-double-probation-hidden cost or benefit to liberating AI or Barb units? Set aside the obvious like saving a citie's life.
You take the unit away from the AI, so they cannot use it against you, and you remove the unit (or the one you would have built yourself) from the unit support list, which can be very helpful if you are in a Rep/Dem government with no free supported units.
If you are playing OCC, it is invaluable, especially for Engineers. I will go to almost any length/price to get a pair of NONE Engineers, as you save the Food support costs as well as the Shields.
Some players have based whole early-game strategies on getting Mapmaking and Writing, building ships & Dips (sounds yummy...), and sending out Hut-buster expeditions. The big problem becomes gold, then, but some huts will yeild gold along the way, and you could include a cheap Horse to do Barb Leader capturing. A string of Hut-techs could be a problem to tech plans, but I have seen players amass armies of dozens of NONE Hut units over 2000-4000yrs.
I have not heard of any hidden costs or benefits to "liberating" AI or Barb units. No one seems to have done any studies of influences on appearance frequencies based on number of bribed units in play. I do not think the AI ever bribes Barbs or tries to kill Leaders, except when the Leader is part of a stack. You have heard of the "Barb Farm" concept of building an undefended city with Barracks and letting the Barbs conquer it so that you can bribe away the production. I have done that occasionally and the production rate does not seem to go down except when the unit produced is "upgraded". Never studied it rigorously, though.
I think in summary the value is primarily to get something you need quickly without taking the time to produce it yourself, to deny something useful (like a Battleship!) to the enemy, and to reduce your "carrying costs" of units with NONE support. These are all good reasons to carry a decent Treasury balance and sprinkle Dips & Spies among your frontline and exploring forces.
If you are playing OCC, it is invaluable, especially for Engineers. I will go to almost any length/price to get a pair of NONE Engineers, as you save the Food support costs as well as the Shields.
Some players have based whole early-game strategies on getting Mapmaking and Writing, building ships & Dips (sounds yummy...), and sending out Hut-buster expeditions. The big problem becomes gold, then, but some huts will yeild gold along the way, and you could include a cheap Horse to do Barb Leader capturing. A string of Hut-techs could be a problem to tech plans, but I have seen players amass armies of dozens of NONE Hut units over 2000-4000yrs.
I have not heard of any hidden costs or benefits to "liberating" AI or Barb units. No one seems to have done any studies of influences on appearance frequencies based on number of bribed units in play. I do not think the AI ever bribes Barbs or tries to kill Leaders, except when the Leader is part of a stack. You have heard of the "Barb Farm" concept of building an undefended city with Barracks and letting the Barbs conquer it so that you can bribe away the production. I have done that occasionally and the production rate does not seem to go down except when the unit produced is "upgraded". Never studied it rigorously, though.
I think in summary the value is primarily to get something you need quickly without taking the time to produce it yourself, to deny something useful (like a Battleship!) to the enemy, and to reduce your "carrying costs" of units with NONE support. These are all good reasons to carry a decent Treasury balance and sprinkle Dips & Spies among your frontline and exploring forces.
sethos
no allies
I often send a transport ship with a diplo - goal: "harvesting" barbs. When it's full, it will be sent to the nearest city - and then it continues it's work. In small cities it's a great difference ift they have 1 or 3 shields production (two military units in the city).
And even the bigger cities : 48 shields or 50 shields (50 shields: a caravan per turn!), 78 or 80 shields (a space ship structure per turn).
So in the long term it's a good investment.
And even the bigger cities : 48 shields or 50 shields (50 shields: a caravan per turn!), 78 or 80 shields (a space ship structure per turn).
So in the long term it's a good investment.
TimTheEnchanter
I...am...an Enchanter!
I think his point was that by bribing a NONE army, you don't pay sheild support which can often put you over the top for an important number of shields.
30, 40, or 50 shields production by the end game are key numbers for building space ship parts. Since Factory, Power Plant, and Manuf Plant can all multiply shields by 50%, you only need to be producing 20 shields (one per tile for a city with 20 citizens) to make it to 50 with city improvements. Just about any tile can be transformed by Engineers to give at least one shield, and the Offshore Platform gives you one for each sea tile. 50 is the best number before you start the spaceship as it lets you build caravans or freights in only one turn. Try for 80 after SpaceFlight so you can build a SS Structure in one turn. You need at least 32 shields before the city improvements. But back to the topic, having NONE supported units takes them off the list, freeing the shields for production. And for Engineers, allows another citizen in the city.
Very good! So looking back to the top of the thread, bribing naval vessels does involve a rapidly diminishing rate of return. They don't make good NONE city defenders, for the most part don't make good city attackers and are quite expensive to acquire. At war one can bribe them and immediately turn them back against the enemy armada, but turing peace it's generally better to just let AI naval (not Barb!) just sail by. True?
Ace
Emperor
Its tempting to let the AI ships pass in peacetime, but peace is a fleeting thing, and that very ship you let pass may well be on its way to attack you! Unless you are short of coins, bribe it! A none ship is a freebie for support, and if you really, really don't need it, you can always disband it for the shields. Economics is very important in this game, as in real life, but the idea of killing the last enemy with the last round you have is extremely dangerous (you might miss, or maybe you misscounted his troops)!!
You can never have too many "none" units, especially in Republic or Democracy. Units that do not require support are invaluable.
You can never have too many "none" units, especially in Republic or Democracy. Units that do not require support are invaluable.
You have just mentioned the two most valuable NONE units: Engineers, saving a shield and TWO food, and Transports, saving shields for more valuable military units if necessary. Yes, you can do everything with just those four, because Caravans/Freights and Dips/Spies have no support costs. But if you have the chance to buy a unit that will become a NONE (at a decent price), take it and disband a supported unit. The earlier you get started bribing, the longer the benefit adds up.
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