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Acken's Minimalistic Balance for singleplayer (and AI improvements)

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Modpacks' started by Acken, Aug 3, 2015.

  1. Acken

    Acken Deity

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    The problem is the "at war" condition coupled with an "at peace" condition. Well I can do it but I like to slow down on C++ coding if there are alternatives. That's a good amount of stuff to code just for a single change.

    What about each conversion action give some amount of influence instead ?

    Ok actually I misread your post I though you meant 10% at war and 15% at peace but it doesn't really change the problem, I'd have to make special functions for that (swords is handled like fertility but with a peace requirement) to move swords to food rather than growth. I don't think Swords is too bad. If it's too weak the peace requirement can simply be removed.
     
  2. Acken

    Acken Deity

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    Weakest/boring civs will be addressed first

    I kinda liked the thematic idea of the Royal Library. I had thought about the following changes:
    -1 free GW at Writing (giving more culture to assyria as a side effect)
    -+1 base science to the royal library
    -+20 xp instead of +15

    Basically it removes the problem of having to wait for a GW before benefiting of the RL and limits the xp bonus to the capital at first while also buffing Assyria with raw culture and science.

    Agreed on the unique units, although I think I should allow Byzantium to still be able to make Trireme for naval captures.
    When it comes to their UA Piety being buffed and them having a 17STR horseman truly helps them.

    This destroys the theme of the UU so no... My current idea was to give Carthage a unique harbor (that they get for free) increasing gold and naval xp.

    The problem with giving Luxury is that afaik the luxury appears under the city so creating copy in the capital creates a problem where you can't have more than one. This can be avoided by adding a loop that looks to the first available tile though... which will be annoying to do.
    Agree on the UU changes.

    Yes +10% prod. The jungle movement is reasonable. However I'm not sure about the additional route. I was thinking to also make the longhouse available at IronWorking.

    Tourism on tiles is the kind of stuff that makes you hate Firaxis because it is not coded into the game (tourism is for no reason at all not considered a yield). However whoward pnm mod has the code for it so it's possible to do it.

    I'm also likely to give a boost to the Samurai strength. Samurai have already shock
    Zero as a Triplane is not thematic so no :|

    Scary for sure but wouldn't they be over the top exactly because of the UA ?

    The UA still seems very underwhelming no ? You're rolling +3G +3C at T100 ? Ugly. Also it forces you to use internal only.
    How about making it very likely for an AI to send toward Morocco or a simple trade route buff: more gold/science from external, more food/prod from internal.

    Ok about Kasbah buff but why Biology ?

    The ottomans is one of these civs that get 2 land UU almost at the same time like Rome. I cannot see myself ever fielding both in a game. These two civs for me would get one of their UU removed and replaced by a UB to make them less awkward.
     
  3. chumchu

    chumchu Warlord

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    Start small:

    Assyria, with a free great writer at writing the royal library becomes much better. You will at least build it in your cap for the xp and culture. The rest might be added later if they are still too weak.

    Byzantium: let the dromon be a galley replacement with + 1 speed and the extra strength versus naval. In one stroke they get capture ships, unique units with different timings and better historical accuracy.

    Carthage: I like unique harbors as a replacement for quinqiremes.

    Another option is making naval melée units able to move after attacking, NQ mod does this. It would solve a lot of balance problems with melée units unable to take cities without ranged ships and make the unique melée ship much better.

    Indonesia: I do not think that Indonesia is weak as much as map-dependent, luxuries and Candi are both incredibly useful. The only thing I would change is to remove the negative promotions from Kris swordsman. With that they have a decent unique unit again.

    The Iroquois: 10 % production and the jungle bonus should be sufficient for now. With that they are back as a decent swordrush civ with a good faith/hammer potential if they get a lot of forest.

    Japan: The fewer changes the better I say. Just change it to blitz and let them have the only real synergy there is in that civ. Is it scarier than companions, legions or camel archers? all of these civs have major economy bonii as well.

    Marocco: How about adding double science from trade routes to other civs as that mechanic has no uniques or social policies affecting it.

    Rome: If you want an UB for rome, just copy the Forum from civ 4. A market that gives 25% great persons is thematic and very useful. I think that they are strong enough as is and do not need a change.

    Ottomans: they could have the Hamam as a unique garden that gives happiness.

    I still prefer my other suggestion:

    Copy NQ mod and make their UA: "Ottoman Tolerance: Each city gets +1 Happiness for each Religion in that city with at least 1 Follower.". Replace Sipahi with Corsair, a unique privateer availiable at astronomy that gets gold from kills. Then you have a good warmonger civ with multiple abilities kicking in at the early renaissance.
     
  4. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    @Acken:

    I think a lot of the changes you suggested are far more elegant and/or easier to implement than the one I proposed. I especially like the changes to Assyria. I won't quote every bit of your post, just reply generally.

    As for Morocco and the Kashbah, I think the additional bonus should arrive at either a) Biology, b) Flight or C) Economics, it just depends on how much you want to buff them, with Biology obviously being the worst and Eco the best outcome. You also misunderstood the part about -2 gold. I did not mean to make Morocco lose the Gold bonus on external Carvans, just their trading partners.

    The change I was most passionate about however was the one to Japan and I urge you to reconsider.

    I completely agree that Zero at Triplanes is thematically unsound, so I will propose another change that would still make a Zero rush profitable instead of totally useless:

    1) Make the Zero come with Ballistics instead of Radar. This even makes historical sense, since the Zero was ahead of virtually every single Fighter plane at its inception in 1940, but could not compete later on. Maybe with this you could reduce the Ranged Strength of it by 1 to make it even more historically sound, but I don't think of it as neccessary.
    2) If you are keen on leaving the Zero where it is in the tech tree (I would hate that, but it's your mod after all :) ) then atleast give it a decent bonus. I think the +33% damage against other fighters is definitely historically sound, but not very strong. on the other hand, this is what a quick research showed:
    "When it was introduced early in World War II, the Zero was considered the most capable carrier-based fighter in the world, combining excellent maneuverability and very long range.[1]"
    So why not increase its range form 8 to 10
    3) If you think all of these changes are too much you could consider removing the +33% bonus but giving them a free Interception I promotion


    One very important thing I completely missed: I think the Formation Promotion is close to useless and should be +33% against Mounted and Armored units.

    I think this is one of the best changes introduced by NQMod
     
  5. TheGrumpyBuddha

    TheGrumpyBuddha King

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    One annoying thing about Japan (among many) is that any current goodness you get from the Samurai is cancelled out a decent amount by not being able to upgrade them to musketmen.
     
  6. Phukit

    Phukit Warlord

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    While I agree,I would ask what is the point of a UU at steel only to have it be obsolete just 2 techs (20 turns max) later?
     
  7. TheGrumpyBuddha

    TheGrumpyBuddha King

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    'tis true, 'tis true ... I would suggest that it replace the swordsman instead but there's a few other units that do that already -- on the other hand, since there's already more than one swordsman substitute, why not just add to the list?

    Arguably, Samurai would be a strong unit even keeping it the same strength, if it got the free flat terrain bonus plus the GG boost. And you'd certainly use it for a lot longer than a longswordsman.
     
  8. Jaybe

    Jaybe civus fanaticus Supporter

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    Upgrade to musket, but keep Becomes Obsolete at Rifling.
    You have the choice, while the AI will often (not always) prefer its UU.

    Plus, "just 2 techs" can seem like a lot more than 20 turns, whether its because of being diverted in research or playing at a different game speed.
     
  9. Legen

    Legen King

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    Would the extra tourism on Japan's UA be of that much help? They already get some from fishing boats once they build hotels and airports, and it's not really noticeable. And, in this mod, you're likely to expand your empire toward the continent simply because the AI tend to settle most of their cities near a luxury.

    I still suggest substituting the "2:c5culture: from Atolls" for "2:c5culture: from Barracks", which is roughly equivalent to the Military Tradition Honor policy and similar to most Dojo implementations of other mods. This is synergetic with the Honor tree, which Japan is likely to get anyway, and can work with Tradition if Legalism treats the japanese barracks as an eligible cultural building with higher priority than the Monument. It is rather unique and, because it comes very early in the game, helps Japan to defend against ideology influence far better than tourism on a late tech.

    About the UUs, Samurai gaining a +4:c5strength:, being as strong as Musketmen, is enough for me. That extra power coming 2 techs earlier already help pushing for new conquests and work well with the free Shock I they already have. For Zero, I'd consider giving them a bonus to naval units and some way to coordinate with land units, like benefiting from flanking as if it were a land unit:

    "Japanese naval air power proved unexpectedly powerful, sinking the American battleship fleet at Pearl Harbor in December 1941, then raging widely across the Pacific and Indian oceans to defeat elements of the British, American, Dutch, and Australian forces. Land-based airpower, coordinated efficiently with land forces, enabled Japan to overrun Malaya, Singapore.,[46] and the Philippines by spring 1942" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_warfare_of_World_War_II#Japanese_air_war_1941.E2.80.9342

    "Germany and Japan depended on air forces that were closely integrated with land and naval forces; they downplayed the advantage of fleets of strategic bombers, and were late in appreciating the need to defend against Allied strategic bombing." - same page.

    An advantage against naval forces is useful by itself for a coastal bias civ, and works well with Bushido in that both Air and Naval forces benefit from it more than land units and very few civs have a UA applicable on them. Having an UU that magnifies the japanese advantage in both domains and offers better land-air coordination can help Japan to have the power spike it had during WWII across the Pacific.
     
  10. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    I support this

    It doesn't help at all with Ideology - culture from buildings is not taken into account for either Hotels or Airports, iirc

    I really like your change because it doesn't screw Japan over if it does not get a coastal start.

    This is close to completely useless in practice. Most of the time Fighters are not even used for attacking and even if they are their damage is rather negligible. Fighters are used for Air Sweep or Interception, that's pretty much it.

    This I suppose would be incredibly hard to code

    In close to 1000 hours of Civ 5, most on Deity, I have never even once used a Fighter to kill off my opponents navy.
     
  11. Legen

    Legen King

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    I was thinking of the extra culture you can accumulate before Ideologies hit, as it can be the difference between someone being Exotic or Familiar to your civ. I wasn't thinking of the tourism there.

    About the navy part, it was the historical alternative that isn't tied to Air Sweep and Interception, so you can have an UU that changes the typical gameplay. Though, it would require a huge percent bonus to make the Zero worth using like that.

    Honestly, I just wished to see air supremacy having more impact than just clearing the way for Bombers. Civ5 does a poor job at representing the development and importance that Close Air Support had in the World wars. And it got over my head when I started to write about the Zero...
     
  12. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    That is very true. I was thinking you were talking about us (Japan) being exotic with a dominant tourism Civ.

    I fully understand you, though and I share your pain. This airplane played such a huge role in Japan's air supremacy and it's but a shadow of its former glory in Civ, not useful for anything but stopping your troops from being bombed.

    It's not even all that great at that- the Anti Air Gun and Mobile SAM are better in just about virtually every scenario aside from sea battles, obviously.

    I really do think both Triplanes and Fighters deserve a buff, even if it's just a really small one.
     
  13. Phukit

    Phukit Warlord

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    Are the English SotL too good?

    7 movement and 30% stronger than a standard frigate out of the box.barracks+ armory and you are just a few steps away from range.

    These things are just absolutely devastating on about any map save pangea.

    arguably the most dominant UU in its era no?
     
  14. ima

    ima Chieftain

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    After Keshik and Camel archer, but yeah, frigates already are super strong, so a stronger frigate...

    There's a reason why many mods nerfs the SotL :)
     
  15. Legen

    Legen King

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    Maybe the reason why Fighters aren't important now is because the AI consistently neglects their air force. They rarely amass air units and the few ones they build are bombers. Since the player is unlikely to face fighters in the first place, bombers become the priority, as the air space is already safe for them.

    If the AI consistently amassed fighters instead, then the player's priority should shift to fighters, as bombers become too riskly to employ until you have an equivalent fighter counterpoint. In this scenario, we should even see fighters attacking land/naval units simply because there are too few bombers to use for that purpose.

    This scenario is both more benefical for the Zero and more historically accurate. Many great powers developed large air forces to fight enemy aircrafts, and faced high pressure to develop tactics for air superiority with their fighters.
     
  16. Phukit

    Phukit Warlord

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    I like keshiks but personally find them somewhat over rated.

    They are quite fragile and are much easier to defend against than camel archers.

    Im not sure there is a way to defend against SotL aside from a well promoted navy of your own with a large numbers advantage.
     
  17. Phukit

    Phukit Warlord

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    Emperor,small continent,standard,standard.

    T229 DomV as England
    Lots of gems but not a ton of early growth in London,thats ok because my only neighbour on my continent is Ghandi.

    4 city tradition T91NC (not great since cap growth was marginal until i had 2 TR to london and CS)


    Poor terrain and some timely settler blocks keep Ghandi to 2 cities until he finally decides to embark his settlers around T100.

    Alex starts sending his settlers across the water around t100 also,drops 2 cities on my borders,annoying but I know his days are numbered.

    T120 EDU have enough cash to rush/buy unis in all but the cap.

    T155 navigation,have 6 galleas for immediate upgrades,all cities start to pump out SotLs.

    Alex goes first,not because he posed any real threat but because F*&% Alexander thats why.

    I decide to make a sub optimal sweep and target Paris next which is on the other side of the map,Napoleon has been kind enough to build Hanging gardens,Uffizi,Great Wall,Oracle, Taj,Sistine,Great Mosque,HImjie castle,Parthenon,Notre Dame,great Library,Angkor wat Great Lighthouse for me....I just need to stop by and pick them up.

    Everyone else falls not too long later.Most Civs didnt pay much attention to their navies but in all honesty it wouldnt have mattered much anyways,ghandi had 8 frigates and a few privateers waiting for me T223 at his cap before i Dow him to close out the game,2 turns later his navy was sunk. The only way to defend against SotL is to have your cities 4 tiles from the coast.

    I probably could have done this close to sub 200 by breaking my navy into 3-4 groups but i was just having too much fun with 20+ SotLs sloshing around in a big carpet of destruction.
     

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  18. Chum

    Chum King

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    Did you increase hate penalty for forward settling?

    It is REALLY hard to settle in ANY direction these days. I'd say 95% of my games I get double DOW'd immediately after "forward settling" civs. Which basically means between my capital and theirs, doesn't matter how many tiles it is.

    I don't care, because I know it's coming and I plan for it, but the opening to every game starts exactly the same.

    "Ah, hello neighbor! May our empires prosper in friendship!"
    "I can't help but notice you seem to be settling in lands I consider mine!"
    "Excellent, I hope we can continue to find common ground"
    "Denounce" 2 turns later.
    Then double DoW.

    It's HEAVILY routine at this point.
     
  19. Acken

    Acken Deity

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    Not more than it used to. I've reduced random aggression for the next version as said a couple page back but this is not live.

    On a side note I've started to incorporate some of the changes for civilizations. I've gone forward with the change to Assyria. For Byzantium I've allowed them to make the Trireme, the galley idea was interesting but I'm getting overwhelmed about the possible issues of transforming a ranged unit into a melee unit. The problem with allowing trireme is if people want to play with custom civs I'll have to know how to make a SQL script otherwise these civs would be able to make dromons if the mod is loaded after mine. Finally I'm testing a unique change to the cataphract, making it available for faith purchase regardless of whether or not you have the belief.
     
  20. Lord Yanaek

    Lord Yanaek Emperor

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    Interesting. Looks like you really managed to increase the difficulty (unless i simply have to adapt my play-style) :goodjob:

    I'm curious as to why you pushed pikemen to chivalry. I agree that in vanilla, civil-service rush with the strong pikemen in addition to farm bonus was bit too easy to improve both your military and economy, but with the changes to sword line, pikemen (now a late medieval unit) has the same strength as swordmen (a late classical unit). Era wise, pikemen now directly compare with longsword (16:c5strength: vs 23:c5strength:).
    Not sure how i feel about the swords changes btw. They definitely deserved a boost, but it feels like you over-fixed them now and with the bow nerf, it looks like bows can hardly hurt them (making horses less attractive as one of their biggest roles should be to crush archers and siege units).
    Well, i have only just discovered your mod and certainly need to adapt but my first impression is that swords just went from "why bother with those" to "why bother with anything else" and i think neither situation is good.

    Sorry if this sounds like criticism. You did a nice job, i'm just not sure you got the right balance there, and yes, i understand that balance is subjective :)
     

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