Acken's Minimalistic Balance for singleplayer (and AI improvements)

[Acken]

Is it possible to make it 10% food at peace 10% production at war?

Or barracks/armory/military academy +2 food?

The problem is the "at war" condition coupled with an "at peace" condition. Well I can do it but I like to slow down on C++ coding if there are alternatives. That's a good amount of stuff to code just for a single change.

If you get a CS quest for religion you can get a CS ally with just one charge from a Missionary - also your Religion will make influence last longer. I think it's a big improvement, especially considering PP was essentially useless unless you went Patronage, too, for permanent friendship (and even then it's close to useless).

What about each conversion action give some amount of influence instead ?

I think the problem is that I proposed a change from Excess Food to Food.

Ok actually I misread your post I though you meant 10% at war and 15% at peace but it doesn't really change the problem, I'd have to make special functions for that (swords is handled like fertility but with a peace requirement) to move swords to food rather than growth. I don't think Swords is too bad. If it's too weak the peace requirement can simply be removed.

 

[Acken]

Weakest/boring civs will be addressed first

Civilizations
~Assyria
* (Assyria have always suffered from decent but situational bonuses. Having a filled Great Writing slot as requirement for giving +15 exp is just a horrible mechanic. Their Unique Ability is also highly random. I suggest changing it to Assyria stealing a tech like a Spy would, but that might push them over the edge, so I will let it rest for now. Their Unique Unit is very strong if used right. I don't know why they went with 15 experience on the Royal Library when 20 is needed for a level up.)
+ Royal Library no longer has a Great Slot of Writing
+ Royal Library no longer needs a filled Writing Slot in order to grant experience
+ Royal Library now grants 20 experience instead of 15

I kinda liked the thematic idea of the Royal Library. I had thought about the following changes:
-1 free GW at Writing (giving more culture to assyria as a side effect)
-+1 base science to the royal library
-+20 xp instead of +15

Basically it removes the problem of having to wait for a GW before benefiting of the RL and limits the xp bonus to the capital at first while also buffing Assyria with raw culture and science.

~Byzantine
* (Byzantium is, in my opinion, one of the worst civilizations in the game. They can potentially be very strong, but only if you are playing on a coastal map and your opponents have coastal capitals. I feel like their Unique Ability is actually very strong, especially now seeing as the AI does not favor religion as much. Getting two Pantheons is very, very big. I feel it is very unfair that great Civilizations like Greece exist, where their Unique Unit, the Companion Cavalry has not one (+1 Movement), not two (added Combat Strength, but three (Great Generals 1) amazing advantages. The Cataphract needs some love in order to make Byzantium a relevant Civilization for early warfare. They are already good in that they can fortify and are one of the very few units that can keep up with Swordsmen early, but Horsemen are used for the additional movement point and Cataphract need something to make up for this loss.)
+ Cataphract now gains the Great Generals 1 Promotion
+ Dromon Hammer value reduced from 56 to 50

Agreed on the unique units, although I think I should allow Byzantium to still be able to make Trireme for naval captures.
When it comes to their UA Piety being buffed and them having a 17STR horseman truly helps them.

~Carthage
* (This is another contender for weakest Civilization in the game. They have been buffed indirectly by buffing Horsemen and buffing wide play, which Carthage benefits from. Their bonus of being able to move over mountains is extremely situational and rather negligible. They really need an economic boost for when they are starting inland in order to be viable. Since they are also a Civilization leaning towards Domination Victories and roads are essential for Domination Victories I feel like this is a bonus that would suit them well. Triremes are sadly a terrible unit, so I suggest giving Carthage a unique Caravel, since not a single Civilization in the game features one.)
+ Additional Unique Ability: Pay only half for road tile maintenance
+ Quinquereme is now no longer a Trireme but a Caravel
+ Quinquereme starts with the Coastal Raider Promotion

This destroys the theme of the UU so no... My current idea was to give Carthage a unique harbor (that they get for free) increasing gold and naval xp.

~Indonesia
* (Once again Indonesia is one of those Civilizations that only work well on water-based maps. They do however have a great Unique Building, which I think is fine as it is. A little rework of the Unique Ability and a complete rework of the Unique Unit can make this Civilization compete with the others. I would very much like a unique unit that accompanies their playstyle, that can be massed and can be used to discover new continents.)
+ Unique Ability now grants you a single Unique Luxury in your capital in addition to the ones you get for founding on a new Continent
+ Kris Swordsmen now gain +1 Sight and +1 Movement when embarked
+ Kris Swordsmen now cost 65 Hammers instead of 75
+ Kris Swordsmen lose their random bonus

The problem with giving Luxury is that afaik the luxury appears under the city so creating copy in the capital creates a problem where you can't have more than one. This can be avoided by adding a loop that looks to the first available tile though... which will be annoying to do.
Agree on the UU changes.

Iroquois: Either apply road and production bonus to jungle as well or give longhouse 10% production like ordinary workshops. [actually makes longhouse an improvement over workshops]

~Iroquois
* (They already recieved a major buff when Swordsmen were made viable. The Forest Pantheon also really helps the Iroquois. They are still an extremely weak Civilization. Their Unique Ability iirc is very buggy and often times makes things worse instead of helping.)
+ Longhouse now also gives you +10% Production Value
+ Unique Ability changed to:
+ Units move through Forest and Jungle in friendly territory as if it is Road
+ Gain one additional Trade Route slot upon researching The Wheel
+ Caravans move along Forest and Jungle as if they were Roads

Yes +10% prod. The jungle movement is reasonable. However I'm not sure about the additional route. I was thinking to also make the longhouse available at IronWorking.

~Japan
* (With only a few very slight tweaks this Civilization can go from mediocrity to being a very unique warmongering Civilization. First off, I think their Unique Ability is fine, but it would be nice if they had another bonus for peaceful play. I suggest adding Tourism to Work Boats and Atolls, since it helps with Ideological Pressure for a Domination Victory or helps with a Culture Victory. The Samurai needs some love, but it is very strong, especially with the changes to Longswords that I posted earlier. I would suggest giving it Shock. My only two problems with the Japanese are the Zero - it comes too late to do anything of worth. However, if the Zero was actually a Triplane, it would open up so many amazing strategies; for example: the player can now rush Flight, get Autocracy, build Prora and after that spam Zeroes without needing Biology, since they are not Oil reliant. They are not nearly as strong as Bombers, but they have a lot of offensive and defensive utility. This would make Japan a very unique Civilization and help distinguish them from others. Triplanes used offensively also benefit from Bushido a lot more, so there would be synergy with their Unique Ability. Aditionally, the ability to build sea imrpovements with Samurai is a fking joke. Steel comes way, way too late, at a point where all your sea resources should have been improved long ago.)
+ Workboats and Atolls now provide +1 Tourism upon researching Flight
+ Unique Ability now lets you build Work Boats for 20 Hammers instead of 30
+ Samurai can no longer build Work Boats
+ Samurai now start with Shock instead of Drill
+ The Zero is now a Triplane with Interception 50 and +33% bonus against other Triplanes

Tourism on tiles is the kind of stuff that makes you hate Firaxis because it is not coded into the game (tourism is for no reason at all not considered a yield). However whoward pnm mod has the code for it so it's possible to do it.

I'm also likely to give a boost to the Samurai strength. Samurai have already shock
Zero as a Triplane is not thematic so no :|

Japan: Samurai have Blitz instead of Shock. [works better with their unique ability, actually makes them scary]

Scary for sure but wouldn't they be over the top exactly because of the UA ?

~Morocco
* (Once again one of the, if not the, worst Civilization in the game. Their economic bonuses are almost nonexistent, especially considering how likely you are to lose your Caravan to a greedy AI now. They are also heavily dependant on a desert start, which is always bad if you don't get it. The Berber Cavalry is mediocre at best and the Kashbah is only really good in a Petra city. Their Trade Route bonus is very weak, especially since Trade Routes have been nerfed this much. I feel like in order for them to feel unique they have to get a really strong bonus for their Trade Routes, so that they prioritize those technologies and the East India Company.)
+ Unique Ability +2 Gold for everyone sending a Trade Route to Marocco removed
+ Unique Ability now also grants +1 Gold and +1 Culture for every internal Trade Route
+ The Kashbah defensive bonus is removed
+ The Kashbah now grants +2 Food, +1 Production and +2 Gold upon researching Biology
+ The Berber Cavalry loses its bonus in desert
+ The Berber Cavalry can now fortify and receive defensive bonuses

The UA still seems very underwhelming no ? You're rolling +3G +3C at T100 ? Ugly. Also it forces you to use internal only.
How about making it very likely for an AI to send toward Morocco or a simple trade route buff: more gold/science from external, more food/prod from internal.

Ok about Kasbah buff but why Biology ?

~Ottoman
* (Both the Ottoman Unique Units are very interesting, but only the Janissary has good bonuses. The idea of using the Sipahi as a spotter is neat, but it needs more help to do that role better. The Ottoman Unique Ability needs a rework, but I personally hate the one it got in NQMod.)
+ Unique Ability is completely scrapped
+ Unique Ability now gives you Gold worth half the opponents combat strength on kills
+ Sipahi now receives the +1 Sight Promotion and +1 Movement, but loses its other bonuses
+ Sipahi now has a Combat Strength of 24 instead of 25

The ottomans is one of these civs that get 2 land UU almost at the same time like Rome. I cannot see myself ever fielding both in a game. These two civs for me would get one of their UU removed and replaced by a UB to make them less awkward.

 

[chumchu]

Start small:

Assyria, with a free great writer at writing the royal library becomes much better. You will at least build it in your cap for the xp and culture. The rest might be added later if they are still too weak.

Byzantium: let the dromon be a galley replacement with + 1 speed and the extra strength versus naval. In one stroke they get capture ships, unique units with different timings and better historical accuracy.

Carthage: I like unique harbors as a replacement for quinqiremes.

Another option is making naval melée units able to move after attacking, NQ mod does this. It would solve a lot of balance problems with melée units unable to take cities without ranged ships and make the unique melée ship much better.

Indonesia: I do not think that Indonesia is weak as much as map-dependent, luxuries and Candi are both incredibly useful. The only thing I would change is to remove the negative promotions from Kris swordsman. With that they have a decent unique unit again.

The Iroquois: 10 % production and the jungle bonus should be sufficient for now. With that they are back as a decent swordrush civ with a good faith/hammer potential if they get a lot of forest.

Japan: The fewer changes the better I say. Just change it to blitz and let them have the only real synergy there is in that civ. Is it scarier than companions, legions or camel archers? all of these civs have major economy bonii as well.

Marocco: How about adding double science from trade routes to other civs as that mechanic has no uniques or social policies affecting it.

Rome: If you want an UB for rome, just copy the Forum from civ 4. A market that gives 25% great persons is thematic and very useful. I think that they are strong enough as is and do not need a change.

Ottomans: they could have the Hamam as a unique garden that gives happiness.

I still prefer my other suggestion:

Copy NQ mod and make their UA: "Ottoman Tolerance: Each city gets +1 Happiness for each Religion in that city with at least 1 Follower.". Replace Sipahi with Corsair, a unique privateer availiable at astronomy that gets gold from kills. Then you have a good warmonger civ with multiple abilities kicking in at the early renaissance.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

@Acken:

I think a lot of the changes you suggested are far more elegant and/or easier to implement than the one I proposed. I especially like the changes to Assyria. I won't quote every bit of your post, just reply generally.

As for Morocco and the Kashbah, I think the additional bonus should arrive at either a) Biology, b) Flight or C) Economics, it just depends on how much you want to buff them, with Biology obviously being the worst and Eco the best outcome. You also misunderstood the part about -2 gold. I did not mean to make Morocco lose the Gold bonus on external Carvans, just their trading partners.

The change I was most passionate about however was the one to Japan and I urge you to reconsider.

I completely agree that Zero at Triplanes is thematically unsound, so I will propose another change that would still make a Zero rush profitable instead of totally useless:

1) Make the Zero come with Ballistics instead of Radar. This even makes historical sense, since the Zero was ahead of virtually every single Fighter plane at its inception in 1940, but could not compete later on. Maybe with this you could reduce the Ranged Strength of it by 1 to make it even more historically sound, but I don't think of it as neccessary.
2) If you are keen on leaving the Zero where it is in the tech tree (I would hate that, but it's your mod after all ) then atleast give it a decent bonus. I think the +33% damage against other fighters is definitely historically sound, but not very strong. on the other hand, this is what a quick research showed:
"When it was introduced early in World War II, the Zero was considered the most capable carrier-based fighter in the world, combining excellent maneuverability and very long range.[1]"
So why not increase its range form 8 to 10
3) If you think all of these changes are too much you could consider removing the +33% bonus but giving them a free Interception I promotion


One very important thing I completely missed: I think the Formation Promotion is close to useless and should be +33% against Mounted and Armored units.

I think this is one of the best changes introduced by NQMod

 

[TheGrumpyBuddha]

One annoying thing about Japan (among many) is that any current goodness you get from the Samurai is cancelled out a decent amount by not being able to upgrade them to musketmen.

 

[Phukit]

One annoying thing about Japan (among many) is that any current goodness you get from the Samurai is cancelled out a decent amount by not being able to upgrade them to musketmen.

While I agree,I would ask what is the point of a UU at steel only to have it be obsolete just 2 techs (20 turns max) later?

 

[TheGrumpyBuddha]

While I agree,I would ask what is the point of a UU at steel only to have it be obsolete just 2 techs (20 turns max) later?

'tis true, 'tis true ... I would suggest that it replace the swordsman instead but there's a few other units that do that already -- on the other hand, since there's already more than one swordsman substitute, why not just add to the list?

Arguably, Samurai would be a strong unit even keeping it the same strength, if it got the free flat terrain bonus plus the GG boost. And you'd certainly use it for a lot longer than a longswordsman.

 

[Jaybe]

While I agree,I would ask what is the point of a UU at steel only to have it be obsolete just 2 techs (20 turns max) later?

Upgrade to musket, but keep Becomes Obsolete at Rifling.
You have the choice, while the AI will often (not always) prefer its UU.

Plus, "just 2 techs" can seem like a lot more than 20 turns, whether its because of being diverted in research or playing at a different game speed.

 

[Legen]

Would the extra tourism on Japan's UA be of that much help? They already get some from fishing boats once they build hotels and airports, and it's not really noticeable. And, in this mod, you're likely to expand your empire toward the continent simply because the AI tend to settle most of their cities near a luxury.

I still suggest substituting the "2 from Atolls" for "2 from Barracks", which is roughly equivalent to the Military Tradition Honor policy and similar to most Dojo implementations of other mods. This is synergetic with the Honor tree, which Japan is likely to get anyway, and can work with Tradition if Legalism treats the japanese barracks as an eligible cultural building with higher priority than the Monument. It is rather unique and, because it comes very early in the game, helps Japan to defend against ideology influence far better than tourism on a late tech.

About the UUs, Samurai gaining a +4, being as strong as Musketmen, is enough for me. That extra power coming 2 techs earlier already help pushing for new conquests and work well with the free Shock I they already have. For Zero, I'd consider giving them a bonus to naval units and some way to coordinate with land units, like benefiting from flanking as if it were a land unit:

"Japanese naval air power proved unexpectedly powerful, sinking the American battleship fleet at Pearl Harbor in December 1941, then raging widely across the Pacific and Indian oceans to defeat elements of the British, American, Dutch, and Australian forces. Land-based airpower, coordinated efficiently with land forces, enabled Japan to overrun Malaya, Singapore.,[46] and the Philippines by spring 1942" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_warfare_of_World_War_II#Japanese_air_war_1941.E2.80.9342

"Germany and Japan depended on air forces that were closely integrated with land and naval forces; they downplayed the advantage of fleets of strategic bombers, and were late in appreciating the need to defend against Allied strategic bombing." - same page.

An advantage against naval forces is useful by itself for a coastal bias civ, and works well with Bushido in that both Air and Naval forces benefit from it more than land units and very few civs have a UA applicable on them. Having an UU that magnifies the japanese advantage in both domains and offers better land-air coordination can help Japan to have the power spike it had during WWII across the Pacific.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

I still suggest substituting the "2 from Atolls" for "2 from Barracks", which is roughly equivalent to the Military Tradition Honor policy and similar to most Dojo implementations of other mods. This is synergetic with the Honor tree, which Japan is likely to get anyway, and can work with Tradition if Legalism treats the japanese barracks as an eligible cultural building with higher priority than the Monument. It is rather unique and, because it comes very early in the game

I support this

helps Japan to defend against ideology influence far better than tourism on a late tech.

It doesn't help at all with Ideology - culture from buildings is not taken into account for either Hotels or Airports, iirc

I really like your change because it doesn't screw Japan over if it does not get a coastal start.

For Zero, I'd consider giving them a bonus to naval units

This is close to completely useless in practice. Most of the time Fighters are not even used for attacking and even if they are their damage is rather negligible. Fighters are used for Air Sweep or Interception, that's pretty much it.

some way to coordinate with land units, like benefiting from flanking as if it were a land unit:

This I suppose would be incredibly hard to code

An advantage against naval forces is useful by itself for a coastal bias civ, and works well with Bushido in that both Air and Naval forces benefit from it more than land units and very few civs have a UA applicable on them. Having an UU that magnifies the japanese advantage in both domains and offers better land-air coordination can help Japan to have the power spike it had during WWII across the Pacific.

In close to 1000 hours of Civ 5, most on Deity, I have never even once used a Fighter to kill off my opponents navy.

 

[Legen]

It doesn't help at all with Ideology - culture from buildings is not taken into account for either Hotels or Airports, iirc

I was thinking of the extra culture you can accumulate before Ideologies hit, as it can be the difference between someone being Exotic or Familiar to your civ. I wasn't thinking of the tourism there.

About the navy part, it was the historical alternative that isn't tied to Air Sweep and Interception, so you can have an UU that changes the typical gameplay. Though, it would require a huge percent bonus to make the Zero worth using like that.

Honestly, I just wished to see air supremacy having more impact than just clearing the way for Bombers. Civ5 does a poor job at representing the development and importance that Close Air Support had in the World wars. And it got over my head when I started to write about the Zero...

 

[yung.carl.jung]

I was thinking of the extra culture you can accumulate before Ideologies hit, as it can be the difference between someone being Exotic or Familiar to your civ. I wasn't thinking of the tourism there.

That is very true. I was thinking you were talking about us (Japan) being exotic with a dominant tourism Civ.

Honestly, I just wished to see air supremacy having more impact than just clearing the way for Bombers. Civ5 does a poor job at representing the development and importance that Close Air Support had in the World wars. And it got over my head when I started to write about the Zero...

I fully understand you, though and I share your pain. This airplane played such a huge role in Japan's air supremacy and it's but a shadow of its former glory in Civ, not useful for anything but stopping your troops from being bombed.

It's not even all that great at that- the Anti Air Gun and Mobile SAM are better in just about virtually every scenario aside from sea battles, obviously.

I really do think both Triplanes and Fighters deserve a buff, even if it's just a really small one.

 

[Phukit]

Are the English SotL too good?

7 movement and 30% stronger than a standard frigate out of the box.barracks+ armory and you are just a few steps away from range.

These things are just absolutely devastating on about any map save pangea.

arguably the most dominant UU in its era no?

 

[ima]

arguably the most dominant UU in its era no?

After Keshik and Camel archer, but yeah, frigates already are super strong, so a stronger frigate...

There's a reason why many mods nerfs the SotL

 

[Legen]

I fully understand you, though and I share your pain. This airplane played such a huge role in Japan's air supremacy and it's but a shadow of its former glory in Civ, not useful for anything but stopping your troops from being bombed.

It's not even all that great at that- the Anti Air Gun and Mobile SAM are better in just about virtually every scenario aside from sea battles, obviously.

I really do think both Triplanes and Fighters deserve a buff, even if it's just a really small one.

Maybe the reason why Fighters aren't important now is because the AI consistently neglects their air force. They rarely amass air units and the few ones they build are bombers. Since the player is unlikely to face fighters in the first place, bombers become the priority, as the air space is already safe for them.

If the AI consistently amassed fighters instead, then the player's priority should shift to fighters, as bombers become too riskly to employ until you have an equivalent fighter counterpoint. In this scenario, we should even see fighters attacking land/naval units simply because there are too few bombers to use for that purpose.

This scenario is both more benefical for the Zero and more historically accurate. Many great powers developed large air forces to fight enemy aircrafts, and faced high pressure to develop tactics for air superiority with their fighters.

 

[Phukit]

After Keshik and Camel archer, but yeah, frigates already are super strong, so a stronger frigate...

There's a reason why many mods nerfs the SotL

I like keshiks but personally find them somewhat over rated.

They are quite fragile and are much easier to defend against than camel archers.

Im not sure there is a way to defend against SotL aside from a well promoted navy of your own with a large numbers advantage.

 

[Phukit]

Emperor,small continent,standard,standard.

T229 DomV as England
Lots of gems but not a ton of early growth in London,thats ok because my only neighbour on my continent is Ghandi.

4 city tradition T91NC (not great since cap growth was marginal until i had 2 TR to london and CS)


Poor terrain and some timely settler blocks keep Ghandi to 2 cities until he finally decides to embark his settlers around T100.

Alex starts sending his settlers across the water around t100 also,drops 2 cities on my borders,annoying but I know his days are numbered.

T120 EDU have enough cash to rush/buy unis in all but the cap.

T155 navigation,have 6 galleas for immediate upgrades,all cities start to pump out SotLs.

Alex goes first,not because he posed any real threat but because F*&% Alexander thats why.

I decide to make a sub optimal sweep and target Paris next which is on the other side of the map,Napoleon has been kind enough to build Hanging gardens,Uffizi,Great Wall,Oracle, Taj,Sistine,Great Mosque,HImjie castle,Parthenon,Notre Dame,great Library,Angkor wat Great Lighthouse for me....I just need to stop by and pick them up.

Everyone else falls not too long later.Most Civs didnt pay much attention to their navies but in all honesty it wouldnt have mattered much anyways,ghandi had 8 frigates and a few privateers waiting for me T223 at his cap before i Dow him to close out the game,2 turns later his navy was sunk. The only way to defend against SotL is to have your cities 4 tiles from the coast.

I probably could have done this close to sub 200 by breaking my navy into 3-4 groups but i was just having too much fun with 20+ SotLs sloshing around in a big carpet of destruction.

 

[Chum]

Did you increase hate penalty for forward settling?

It is REALLY hard to settle in ANY direction these days. I'd say 95% of my games I get double DOW'd immediately after "forward settling" civs. Which basically means between my capital and theirs, doesn't matter how many tiles it is.

I don't care, because I know it's coming and I plan for it, but the opening to every game starts exactly the same.

"Ah, hello neighbor! May our empires prosper in friendship!"
"I can't help but notice you seem to be settling in lands I consider mine!"
"Excellent, I hope we can continue to find common ground"
"Denounce" 2 turns later.
Then double DoW.

It's HEAVILY routine at this point.

 

[Acken]

Not more than it used to. I've reduced random aggression for the next version as said a couple page back but this is not live.

On a side note I've started to incorporate some of the changes for civilizations. I've gone forward with the change to Assyria. For Byzantium I've allowed them to make the Trireme, the galley idea was interesting but I'm getting overwhelmed about the possible issues of transforming a ranged unit into a melee unit. The problem with allowing trireme is if people want to play with custom civs I'll have to know how to make a SQL script otherwise these civs would be able to make dromons if the mod is loaded after mine. Finally I'm testing a unique change to the cataphract, making it available for faith purchase regardless of whether or not you have the belief.

 

[Lord Yanaek]

Interesting. Looks like you really managed to increase the difficulty (unless i simply have to adapt my play-style)

I'm curious as to why you pushed pikemen to chivalry. I agree that in vanilla, civil-service rush with the strong pikemen in addition to farm bonus was bit too easy to improve both your military and economy, but with the changes to sword line, pikemen (now a late medieval unit) has the same strength as swordmen (a late classical unit). Era wise, pikemen now directly compare with longsword (16 vs 23).
Not sure how i feel about the swords changes btw. They definitely deserved a boost, but it feels like you over-fixed them now and with the bow nerf, it looks like bows can hardly hurt them (making horses less attractive as one of their biggest roles should be to crush archers and siege units).
Well, i have only just discovered your mod and certainly need to adapt but my first impression is that swords just went from "why bother with those" to "why bother with anything else" and i think neither situation is good.

Sorry if this sounds like criticism. You did a nice job, i'm just not sure you got the right balance there, and yes, i understand that balance is subjective