Acken's Minimalistic Balance for singleplayer (and AI improvements)

[Erneiz Hyde]

oh riight, I forgot they were buffed.

btw, what was the rationale in removing Economics as prereq for Rifling? If you reintroduce that and then put Musket in Metallurgy I think there will be enough delay between Muskets and Riflemen.

 

[Acken]

True. It allowed for a shortcut to the bottom military techs rather than having to go through acoustics and economics.

I'll think about it.

 

[chumchu]

I like all the changes except the one to gunpowder.

I think balancing techs and buildings by varying their cost is good and reasonable and should have been used throughout in the game.

I do not think that there is an issue with longswords and muskets coming to close to each other that warrants this change for a number of reasons: 1) You can beeline for steel much faster than gunpowder, e.g. if you have a unique unit there. 2) As long as muskets are not that much stronger there will be a time for longswords as they are now relatively strong compared to knights and x-bows. 3) By increasing the cost of gunpowder you make the lower tech path worse. 4) It makes historical sense for infantry to be weaker in the medieval era until gunpowder units to arrive in the early renaissance and upset things.

If you want to balance it, just keep their strengths close.

 

[Legen]

In vanilla, Longswordmen and Musketmen had the same combat strength, differing only in the production cost: 120 and 1 iron vs 150 and no iron. That's why the Gunpowder tech was so close to Steel, it wasn't supposed to provide a better version of the LS, just a version that didn't require Iron.

In G&K, they added this 3 difference that created the current issue for LS.

Historically, muskets didn't obsolete sword units immediately, like the musketmen do in civ5. The earlier versions were somewhat unreliable and too slow to reload, and filled a different role compared to the longsword.

 

[Chum]

Actually ended up wining a Diplo V today on the first vote. Here's how :

Pass world ideology (not hard).
Declare war on warmonger taking CS's.
Capture a city, and when they make peace, ask for a CS.
Liberate it.
Rinse and repeat as necessary.

I was actually going for a science victory, but either the 2 scientists from Hubble, or Faith bought GS's are increasing the GS counter. Everything after satellites was painfully slow, and it turned out it was actually faster to win a Diplo on the first vote.

 

[Acken]

Hubble increase the counter (always has been).

 

[Chum]

Hubble increase the counter (always has been).

Ah, thought somewhere along the way you were making frew great people really free. Hosed myself out of at least 2 then.

Even with 1400 bpt, I only finished from Satellites to robotics with faith bought GS. And I had almost 10k faith. Wouldda been a terrible slog to go to particle physics.

 

[Nigel_Tufnel2]

My take on DV: Make it require actual diplomacy. This goes beyond a minimalist balance approach, but is there a way to track in-game positive and negative scores based on how many wars you start, bribe others into, or agree to? Maybe -2, -1, and -1, respectively?

I would argue that bribing 4 wars, for example, might cost you 4 World Leader Votes. Whereas brokering peace between other civs might buy you a vote. The bribe/DOW trick is so easy to abuse - but would anyone broker peace and DOW?

Brokering peace, the limited times I've done it, seems like it costs a fair bit. I know I've been able to get Khan to stop warring a CS, but only when his local force got killed off due to my own troop positioning. I am pretty sure I've been able to broker peace between civs - can't recall exactly how expensive it was, certainly more than many war bribes cost.

This mechanic wouldn't eliminate the usefulness of CS allies for a DV, but it would allow for a DV with fewer CSs still alive in the Info Era. (And it would certainly punish a dickwad like Alex from winning a DV, which would make me very happy.) I haven't really thought deeply about this, I just wanted to share the idea.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

General Question:

With Great Scientists now being fixed on creation, have any of you considered to just build one or two Academies and then stop working the tiles so you can churn them out faster lategame? I now usually have four to five Academies before I start bulbing (for Plastics or Radio, maybe earlier). I don't think those are a great investment, on the other hand I would hate to lack the beakers provided by working the specialist tiles. Thoughts?

 

[Acken]

I don't understand your question. Do you mean stopping working the specialist so that you can get more greatscientist in the last phase of the game ?

Pretty sure it's not worth it considering the loss of the academy, the teching slow down and the loss of specialist beaker.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

. Do you mean stopping working the specialist so that you can get more greatscientist in the last phase of the game ?

Exactly. Just how when you're going for a Cultural Victory you don't work your Musician's Guild at all until really late in the game to get the Great Musicians out 1) faster 2) when their bulbing value is the highest

Pretty sure it's not worth it considering the loss of the academy, the teching slow down and the loss of specialist beaker.

My question was where exactly the break even point is. I remember you doing the maths for the unmodded game and proving that one should never get more than two Academies and then save up the GS, I wonder how many would be ideal for your mod.

I usually get three or four Academies before I start bulbing, but maybe it would be better to just get two Academies and then bulb through the tech three, or get two Academies, wait, then time your third natural Great Scientist to arrive for Plastics, something like that. You catch my drift?

 

[Acken]

I understand but the maths are way harder to do this time because of the huge number of effects not working the slots has. The value of academies haven't changed a lot, but if you stop working scientific slot this directly put a discount on the GSs created this way due to the raw science of slots and the science loss from a slowed down tech. The game is also longer and you generally generate less GS pre lab because you have less slots.

My intuition is that I wouldn't worry too much about that but this would require some testings first to see if there is any need for simulated maths.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

When do you normally start bulbing your games games though? My earliest bulbs have been for Scientific Theory/Industrialization/Chemistry, usually I bulb my first GS for Radio/Plastics, but then again I did that in the base game, too. Obviously there will be no easy rule of thumb since it depends on circumstances

 

[TheGrumpyBuddha]

When do you normally start bulbing your games games though? My earliest bulbs have been for Scientific Theory/Industrialization/Chemistry, usually I bulb my first GS for Radio/Plastics, but then again I did that in the base game, too. Obviously there will be no easy rule of thumb since it depends on circumstances

I am far from being a master at Acken-Civ but given how tough the game is I generally start bulbing from the 2nd scientist on, certainly if I'm making 800+ beakers on it. After the % bonus in the cap, it would probably take 70 turns or so to break even (not counting the one food or one hammer loss you take planting the scientist) and I'd rather take that sort of advantage up front.

 

[Chum]

General Question:

With Great Scientists now being fixed on creation, have any of you considered to just build one or two Academies and then stop working the tiles so you can churn them out faster lategame? I now usually have four to five Academies before I start bulbing (for Plastics or Radio, maybe earlier). I don't think those are a great investment, on the other hand I would hate to lack the beakers provided by working the specialist tiles. Thoughts?

This is exactly the thought I was having after I saw what I saw in that last game. 1400bpt after Nanotech and looking at another 80ish turns to victory is just abysmal. It really takes the drive outta doing a Sci victory. With tourism being what it is, you could almost go to internet first (you pretty much have to anyway to get to Particle Physics) and win via Tourism. There's not much to do with your production that late in the tech tree anyway, might as well just pump archaeologists and cover the globe, fill all your museums.

Alternatively, now that i figured out it's easy to liberate CS's half the world away and completely embedded in enemy territory, I'll just do that instead and go back to cheesy diplo.

But yes, the thought did cross my mind that not working scientist slots until late game was the way to go. The trouble comes with all the engineers you're likely to spawn that way, pushing up the cost of scientists. With the 100/50 rule in effect, there comes a point late game where all your cities have pushed out a scientist in a short period of time, and then you have no choice to either stop working nearly all your specialist slots, or be forced to put out a number of Engineers/merchants equal to the number of your cities, which REALLY gives you a heavy drought on scientists. Faith production in the mod is amazing, but it's not good enough to get you more than 4 scientists or so with the way the costs ramp up.

Maybe the better way to do it is to put a sensible cap on the faith bought great people cost. I was at 6000 for my next GS when I won via diplo that last game. That's ridiculous, but I would have generated one more before I won via science. What's the next scientist after that? 8000? 8500? Super bad.

 

[Acken]

When do you normally start bulbing your games games though? My earliest bulbs have been for Scientific Theory/Industrialization/Chemistry, usually I bulb my first GS for Radio/Plastics, but then again I did that in the base game, too. Obviously there will be no easy rule of thumb since it depends on circumstances

Like you said it depends on circumstances. I use the bulb to get something important right away and plant if there is enough time before the end compared to the bulb value.

Worth mentioning that you probably at this point play the mod more than I do considering I lose a huge amount of time on it just testing it

 

[Phukit]

Probably not optimal but i generally stop planting at around 175bpt. I can only have so many acadamies in the cap without killing growth,planting in expos loses me the 50% from NC.

at 175bpt its going to take me about 100 turns to break even with bulbing.

At that point id rather just bulb and take the cheap tech especially if its a key science/military/wonder tech im working on.

I never considered not working the specialist slots tbh.....seems like a huge science loss to do so.

perhaps a small reduction in endgame tech cost is prudent?

 

[Acken]

Religion
+ Church Property now gives +3 Gold per City instead of +2

Right now CP gives as much gold as size 10 cities. It's a strong advantage early on for CP. I think 3 is pushing it.

+ Papal Primacy now gives + 25 Influence upon converting a city state, but is no longer permanent

Maybe but I'm not sure it would really make it more attractive. I'm not sure what to do with Papal Primacy right now.

+ Peace Loving now gives + 1 Happiness for every 6 followers of your religion in foreign cities, including enemy cities

Ok

~Follower Beliefs
+ Feed the World now gives +1 Food for Shrines and +2 Food for Temples

Actually I'm reverting it back to +1/+1... +1/+2 is way too good with wide games. It doesn't require Peace and gives as much food as a +20 surplus would with Swords. It comes relatively even at +1/+1 but without the peace requirement.

+ Swords into Ploughshares now gives +10% Food if not at war

For some reason this changes is really annoying to make. I won't do it for now if there is another way to make this belief interesting in a war happy mod.

 

[Phukit]

+ Swords into Ploughshares now gives +10% Food if not at war

For some reason this changes is really annoying to make. I won't do it for now if there is another way to make this belief interesting in a war happy mod.

Is it possible to make it 10% food at peace 10% production at war?

Or barracks/armory/military academy +2 food?

 

[yung.carl.jung]

probably not optimal but i generally stop planting at around 175bpt. I can only have so many acadamies in the cap without killing growth,planting in expos loses me the 50% from NC.

I usually reach 175bpt at around T130, maybe a little later, I definitely plant until around T150 or more (standard speed)

Is it possible to make it 10% food at peace 10% production at war?

I think the problem is that I proposed a change from Excess Food to Food.

Right now CP gives as much gold as size 10 cities. It's a strong advantage early on for CP. I think 3 is pushing it.

That's fair, I think CP is already a top 3 belief.

Maybe but I'm not sure it would really make it more attractive. I'm not sure what to do with Papal Primacy right now.

If you get a CS quest for religion you can get a CS ally with just one charge from a Missionary - also your Religion will make influence last longer. I think it's a big improvement, especially considering PP was essentially useless unless you went Patronage, too, for permanent friendship (and even then it's close to useless).

Actually I'm reverting it back to +1/+1... +1/+2 is way too good with wide games. It doesn't require Peace and gives as much food as a +20 surplus would with Swords. It comes relatively even at +1/+1 but without the peace requirement.

+1 +2 might be a little too strong with Liberty + Piety mix, that is true. if you take into consideration that lib + piety is probably the single strongest playstyle right now that's a fair judgement

Worth mentioning that you probably at this point play the mod more than I do considering I lose a huge amount of time on it just testing it

yeah, i've most likely put more time into playing this mod than anyone itt. probably close to 100 hours.