Acken's Minimalistic Balance for singleplayer (and AI improvements)

It's not the same. It's better. You have less gold for more raw yields with an option to get more gold. I really can't see the issue here.

But yes next test I'll switch the local luxury for salts and do my test with this start no problem.

I know I'm not on your level, but I also know that when I'm running a massive positive income every game, and then one game I get the only lux without gold on the tile I'm running a massive deficit, there's something wrong.

If you're working salt, you don't have gold on any tiles anymore. That means you don't get extra gold from golden ages. That adds up, quickly. I've NEVER felt gold starved in your mod, but I also haven't seen a salt start since you de-clumped it.
 
Hi acken,

I've been playing your mod lately, and I love it! Because the AI now techs much better, endgame is more fun to play.

Now, I my current game I am close do a diplo victory, but the game crashes on the turn processing. I have no idea what seems to be the case... I tried reloading, but it doesn't solve the problem. I enclosed a save, should you want to check it out.
 

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I won't argue that it feels different. You'll definetely have less gold since instead of getting +4G on the lux you'll get 2F1G bonus (+ the base yield of the tile). For 5-6 tiles it really adds up to a massive difference. But what you need to buy with gold simply should come with normal production in the salt start.

That salt allows for more production so that 60H building giving +3 gold to all your routes is not a poor investment. You also have extra food to deal with less food from internal routes.

Also you should have something else than salt on a typical map. Helping you.

Here is a game I've started :
Spoiler :
D0DC51F12D8078EB6491AD4B83BC2F966DBFF63A


As you can see I had enough gold to upgrade my warriors to legions and buy a worker too. I built the caravansary for a +7G+3S from Greece and my second route will follow. Some city states are at 8G 9G at this stage of the game but I preffer getting extra science.

The extra gold from golden age is certainly a loss (although you should get a few extra hammers) but imo it compensates how good these salt tiles are compared to 1F1H4G tiles.
 
Hi acken,

I've been playing your mod lately, and I love it! Because the AI now techs much better, endgame is more fun to play.

Now, I my current game I am close do a diplo victory, but the game crashes on the turn processing. I have no idea what seems to be the case... I tried reloading, but it doesn't solve the problem. I enclosed a save, should you want to check it out.

I wasn't able to replicate the crash sadly. I was able to pass the turn in both v6 and v7. Without making it crash myself I cannot find the reason of the crash.

I have however uploaded a save on the next turn so that you can continue your game.
 

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@ Acken

I have played your challenge map and I think V6 is near perfect. Thank you so much for the solid work, for all those hours you have been putting into balancing this game.

I, too, have been thinking about Specialists a lot lately. I think your solution is good, but missing the bigger picture a little.

Think for example about Engineers. If you pop a lategame Engineer, but there is no wonder left to build that Engineer is just about completely useless. Lategame hammers from the GP improvement will not be doing anything for you.

So in that case what do we do? Well, one thing I have been thinking about is the World Council resolution giving you Culture for Specialist Improvements and Landmarks. Why not rework this resolution - you could make it better, you could split it into three different resolutions, one netting culture, one netting science and one netting gold for example. You could remove it as a World Council option and make it part of the tech tree. So for example if you go towards Internet your GP improvements yield additional culture, if you go towards Stealth Bombers they give gold etc.

Also you have to help me with your formula. For the Great Scientist bulb is your BPT even part of the function now? Or is it just era and # of Academies? I still think the bulk of your bulb should be determined by how much science you have.

One very elegant solution would perhaps look like this:

(Beakers Provided by bulbing the GS) = (Last 4 turns of Science) * Number of Academies modifier * Era modifier.

Personally I love the strategic aspect of creating GP and waiting for the perfect moment to pop them. Saving Great Writers for Worlds Fair + Golden Age is a decision the player has to make: Do I go for the early benefit that will help me steamroll (bulbing the GW instantly) or do I wait it out until I get the most out of it?

Another thing I have been considering: Why not reduce the yields from the GP improvements back to normal, but give them an additional, scaling effect? So, for example, planting a GS will give you +6 science for the Academy, but also +5% local science (so not the +10% during happy from Rat or the +25% from Order factories)? You could do the same for hammers and gold and it would make sure that they scale properly throughout the entire game. It would also mean that planting a GS would have a huge effect on lategame bulbs since +5% science in the cap is a big deal.

Now, for my last and most important resolution:

I agree lategame wonders need to be buffed. But what also needs to happen is a redirection of wonders in the tech tree. There are a few phases where there are TONS of wonders to build and then there come some where you can build almost no good wonders. Example include Theology/early Renaissance. Tons of good wonders, way too many to build them all. Also shortly after Ideology: There's Big Ben, the Ideo wonders, Eiffel and of course all the important buildings like Factories, Public Schools and Stock Exchanges. They all come roughly at the exact same time.

I think if they Renaissance wonders and Industrial wonders were spread out more, if some of the lategame wonders were moved forward a little and some of the REALLY early game wonders like Stonehenge, Artemis, etc. moved back just a little the balance would be much better.

I do however realize you want to stay as close to the original as possible so if that's too much for you then it's not problem.

It just doesn't make sense to me that the best growth wonder in the game is either built before T40 or you will never get it and the Pentagon comes at a time where its bonus is completely useless. I think there is so much room for improvement in the tech-tree, wonder wise.
 
Think for example about Engineers. If you pop a lategame Engineer, but there is no wonder left to build that Engineer is just about completely useless. Lategame hammers from the GP improvement will not be doing anything for you.

Indeed but that is mostly a problem with the wonders. It's also a problem where there are probably more GE in a game with separate counters than necessary.

So in that case what do we do? Well, one thing I have been thinking about is the World Council resolution giving you Culture for Specialist Improvements and Landmarks. Why not rework this resolution - you could make it better, you could split it into three different resolutions, one netting culture, one netting science and one netting gold for example. You could remove it as a World Council option and make it part of the tech tree. So for example if you go towards Internet your GP improvements yield additional culture, if you go towards Stealth Bombers they give gold etc.

Well making new resolution is an idea. Especially science wise considering there are mostly culture stuff.

Also you have to help me with your formula. For the Great Scientist bulb is your BPT even part of the function now? Or is it just era and # of Academies? I still think the bulk of your bulb should be determined by how much science you have.

Well that was my point I'm not very satisfied that it scales with bpt. Mostly because it scales way too good with empire size. Instead of being linked with bpt it would be era based similar to merchants to ensure the scaling with tech costs.

It allows me a lot of control on how much a bulbing is worth. I'd also apply the tech penalty on it to make sure the relative value is always similar.

One very elegant solution would perhaps look like this:

(Beakers Provided by bulbing the GS) = (Last 4 turns of Science) * Number of Academies modifier * Era modifier.

Personally I love the strategic aspect of creating GP and waiting for the perfect moment to pop them. Saving Great Writers for Worlds Fair + Golden Age is a decision the player has to make: Do I go for the early benefit that will help me steamroll (bulbing the GW instantly) or do I wait it out until I get the most out of it?

I truly dislike the gamey part of keeping writers and scientist around like in the base game. Or worse, avoiding early GS to farm them up late game for their higher values.
I want the choice to be between which ability is used and whether or not the specialist slot is worth it.

Another thing I have been considering: Why not reduce the yields from the GP improvements back to normal, but give them an additional, scaling effect? So, for example, planting a GS will give you +6 science for the Academy, but also +5% local science (so not the +10% during happy from Rat or the +25% from Order factories)? You could do the same for hammers and gold and it would make sure that they scale properly throughout the entire game. It would also mean that planting a GS would have a huge effect on lategame bulbs since +5% science in the cap is a big deal.

I have been thinking about it but it's a lot harder to do sadly.

Now, for my last and most important resolution:

I agree lategame wonders need to be buffed. But what also needs to happen is a redirection of wonders in the tech tree. There are a few phases where there are TONS of wonders to build and then there come some where you can build almost no good wonders. Example include Theology/early Renaissance. Tons of good wonders, way too many to build them all. Also shortly after Ideology: There's Big Ben, the Ideo wonders, Eiffel and of course all the important buildings like Factories, Public Schools and Stock Exchanges. They all come roughly at the exact same time.

I think if they Renaissance wonders and Industrial wonders were spread out more, if some of the lategame wonders were moved forward a little and some of the REALLY early game wonders like Stonehenge, Artemis, etc. moved back just a little the balance would be much better.

I do however realize you want to stay as close to the original as possible so if that's too much for you then it's not problem.

It just doesn't make sense to me that the best growth wonder in the game is either built before T40 or you will never get it and the Pentagon comes at a time where its bonus is completely useless. I think there is so much room for improvement in the tech-tree, wonder wise.

Worth considering but I find them relatively well spread it's more a problem of some being rather poor. If however you have a couple specific problems on where the wonder is go ahead.
 
I have to say that any modification that prevents keeping a GP alive for ages is a good thing. Since they are supposed to be unique individuals that have a tremendous effect on the civilisation, I think that when they spawn they should be used immediately, whether planted or bulbed.

Is there any way to make it so that the GP spawn creates a dialogue much the same as the one that comes up when the archaeological dig is finished, which cannot be escaped?

It should say 'choose a tile for the academy/custom house/manufactory' or click to bulb.

And in the case of GWAM, 'make a GW (now) or bulb'.

Having them sit around for 1000 years or more is just stupid. The thing I most like about the NQ mod, for example, is that the amount for the bulbs is fixed, so no more having a line of 15 GS waiting to all pool their research.

Imagine the CNN headline:

"And in other news, 15 of the greatest physicists of the last 1000 years, kept alive by forces still unknown to us, have finally worked out that the Hadron Collider was missing an important component. They flicked a switch and made God particles this morning."
 
The problem with engineers is that they are used only for wonders. In the early game, every turn is precious, so you would want to use them on a wonder instead of manufactory, and lategame hammers are abundant, so you would probably save them for wonders again. But then, lategame wonders are pretty meh, so it feels like a waste of a GE, especially if you could build that wonder in 10 turns.

Maybe if GE's could add hammers to projects like world fair and international games or rush production in all cities at once, then they could be worthwhile, but right now their value seems to diminish as the game goes on compared to scientists and merchants.

I think if they Renaissance wonders and Industrial wonders were spread out more, if some of the lategame wonders were moved forward a little and some of the REALLY early game wonders like Stonehenge, Artemis, etc. moved back just a little the balance would be much better.
Also, doesn't Porcelain Tower still require Rationalism? So you research Architecture, but can't actually build the wonder because the tree is not available? Like Exploration or Commerce come way before their respective wonders are available. But maybe Acken changed it, and I did not see? Sorry, not in game right now.

I also feel like Modern-Atomic eras lacks interesting wonders, while the Renaissance is crammed, but honestly there is nowhere to move the existing in-game wonders because their respective eras make sense.
 
These numbers are on turn 30. Trade routes value increases when the AI gets more ahead in tech, get more gold and you have more diversity and markets.

Salts are a trade between gold and more food/hammers. And the conversion is in salts favor. I'll work a 3F 2H (or 4F 1H) tile over a 1F 1H 4G tile without even thinking twice.

Finally trade posts can provide a 3 gold improvement at Guilds

I was thinking about this last night, lemme try to explain this a different way.

Just so we're clear, base game salt is +1 food, +1 gold on a tile. Acken Mod removes the +1 gold, making Salt simply +1 food.

Base game yields for resources -

Marble +2 gold
Gold/silver/copper +2 gold.
Gems +3 gold.
Silk/Cotton/Incense/Dyes +2 gold.
Ivory/Furs/Spices +2g
Cocoa/Citrus 1f 1g

So far, the outliers here are gems, and the cocoa/citrus.

Improvements -

Mine/quarry +1 hammer.
Camp +2 gold (modded).
Plantation +2 gold (modded). It is interesting to note that the 1f on the Cocoa and Citrus goes away here, since you have to chop the jungle/forest it's located in, effectively removing their +1 food a lot of the time (if it's not grassland underneath).

The ONLY improvement that is not +2 gold or +1 hammer is the salt mine - at +1 food +1 hammer.

Salt was overpowered, on that we agree, but the problem is not the gold on the tile. The problem is not the tile itself, the problem is the fact that it's the only lux that gets a +1 food +1 hammer improvement. If you cut the improvement down to a regular mine and give it just 1 hammer, the issue goes away. A grassland salt would be 3f 1 hammer 1 gold. A plains salt would be 2F2H 1 gold. Neither of those are overpowered tiles.

Your mod provides A LOT of gold to a lot of things now. Camps and fabric plantations being at 4g means they're actually workable. Gold/silver/copper/gems have always been workable. Sea luxes all have gold and are all workable tiles now without the lighthouse. The only lux without gold on the tile now is salt, and that makes a salt start a significant disadvantage. No gold on the tile means no golden age bonus. No gold on the tile means your markets don't multiply anything. Where are you going to get your gold? Trade routes? Caravansary? Trading posts? Okay, that's fine, but every other lux start can build those too. That's not a balance if you're still ahead with the other luxes.

We agree salt needed a fix. No one is arguing that it didn't, but the fix was wrong, and targeted the piece of the puzzle that wasn't the problem - the problem is that it's the only lux that gets a unique improvement, not the gold. Fix the improvement, put the gold back. I'm telling you, it's definitely broken now.
 
Just out of interest, what was the reasoning behind the change to trading posts so that they can only be built adjacent to lux? To stop the AI spamming them?
 
I'm playing 90% AckenMod at the moment, and I would say that warring through the ages becomes really tough at Immortal (6). I've completed fairly illiterate (not completely) sweeps on Emperor and won before the Modern Era, and they are tough in themselves because the AI pretty much techs along with you regardless, and builds the right kinds of units, and taking cities is a whole different ballgame, since the ranged units you'd ordinarily (in the base game) use to clear units from around a city are pretty poor at doing that, and you need a lot of melee. Muskets are really strong, particularly Janissaries and Musketeers. I really love being able to use the melee units.

@Acken: Have you completed a Domination game on Immortal or above? Which units did you use to finish it? When you had to enter periods of economy, did you find any trading partners above 3 GPT?

It seems that the AI hates you even more even quicker for taking more than 2 capitals :D
 
Immortal yes. After that the theodora game maybe could have taken a domination route.
The problem i face is that domination is very long and i often mod as i play when i find some ai stupidity or crappy stuff. So yeah these days i have trouble completing games :(

I wouldnt really be able to answer you at this stage. But regarding warmonger hate it is supposedly lesser than the base game. If it doesnt feel like it it may be because of other reasons. I have to check how captured cities are being peocessed anyway.

Like i said v7 is an ai patch + changes to late wonders and gps.
 
thanks! It seems that it was my computer being annoying.

Regarding great merchants: I find I'm just using them only on trademissions ar CS's. 60 influence plus the entrepreneurship's boosted gold is just too good. Maybe this can be balanced by allowing the custom house to improve the gold yield of adjacent resources?
 
How do you like the changes Fruitstrike made to the Observatory? Personally I love them. It makes mountain tiles actually good, it removes the idiotic prereq of settling directly next to the mountain, it makes start locations more balanced and it makes the Observatory a worthwhile building even if you don't have many mountains.
 
I agree. While we're on the subject, let me just make a short list of the NQ mod features I'd like to see replicated in ModAcken, primarily because I think they are just good changes without any drawback.

1. France UA
2. Germany UA
3. Indonesia UA
4. Kris Swordsman
5. Morocco UA
6. Granary with Bison
7. Observatory (as Carl Jung said)
8. Embassy and Open Borders from start
9. Map Ruins
10. Natural Wonders yields

It's possible some of these are already changed and I don't know about it
 
Are City States meant to capture other cities?

I've never seen it before. I'm on v6 playing as Greece and two of my allied City States grabbed an AI's city when they were weak.

Hilarious. I love it.

If it's a bug, can we keep it? :D
 
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