Acken's Minimalistic Balance for singleplayer (and AI improvements)

[Acken]

Im against it but its not fixed.

 

[noto2]

I don't see what the problem is with GS in this mod. They can be used to build academies, problem solved. The changes made in this mod to the GS are make it infinitely more enjoyable than the base game, where saving the GS to the modern era was almost always the best thing to do.

So Acken, your analysis is that Civ6 is total garbage? Would you recommend I wait on it for a while then?

 

[phryxolydian]

Could there be a way to remove pillage/repair, actually? If there would be a way to make improvements on enemy lands impossible this would also include roads so, whatever, if you don't like using pillage/repair, don't do it. Simple.

The changes to GS are very good imo. Have you seen any MP games? Have a look at Yoruss' cap here as an example. I agree that making them like GMs would also be a very good option, but the way it is atm is still far better than in unmodded BNW.

 

[noto2]

Acken, quick little quibble here - I don't think the Chateu is balanced in this mod. It should probably give both more culture and more gold, as both are worth less than in the base game.

 

[Acken]

Could there be a way to remove pillage/repair, actually? If there would be a way to make improvements on enemy lands impossible this would also include roads so, whatever, if you don't like using pillage/repair, don't do it. Simple.

The changes to GS are very good imo. Have you seen any MP games? Have a look at Yoruss' cap here as an example. I agree that making them like GMs would also be a very good option, but the way it is atm is still far better than in unmodded BNW.

Yes not being able to repair in foreign land is the simple way to go. Although it may create issues with roads idk.

 

[Acken]

So Acken, your analysis is that Civ6 is total garbage? Would you recommend I wait on it for a while then?

You re the kind of player that wpuld benefit from waiting yes.

 

[phryxolydian]

Yes not being able to repair in foreign land is the simple way to go. Although it may create issues with roads idk.

I obviously don't know the code but I imagine some conflicts might arise from making that type of change like archaeologists not being able to dig, feitorias, etc. It would have to be very specific about civs you are at war with. This is all a bit unnecessary imo, if the player doesn't want to (ab)use certain "exploit", it's as simple as not using it, right?

 

[Acken]

No you can put a check for the filter to aply only to repair.

 

[noto2]

Okay so I decided to give AM deity a shot.

ROFL.

I was playing as the Celts. Indonesia launched their spaceship on T209. Seriously...WTH???

I went Liberty wide, went Piety, won a war against a neighbour, had ~12 cities, got my guilds up, started making great works, got sacred sites, went for archeology. By the time I was digging up sites, Indonesia had conquered its continent, had 36 cities, had something like 2000 bpt while mine were about 700. Indonesia was a full era ahead of me, with a mfg something like 3x mine so I decided not to attempt to invade them and instead focus on the culture win.
I was doing pretty well, actually, I managed to put Indonesia into revolt and got them to abandon their ideology. I just couldn't do it in time. With 36 cities he had so much culture that my influence was only slowly building, even with all the multipliers in place.

When I saw him pumping out space ship parts I used faith to buy some artists and musicians, put myself in a golden age, even won the international games, and sent musicians over to tourist-bomb him but it just wasn't fast enough. He finished the ship T209. Out of curiosity I saved the game and loaded it with no fog of war. His military was enormous, he had over a dozen ships on his coast and two dozen units inland around his capital, there's no way I could have invaded.

T209. Space ship. WTH

For those of you who can win AM deity, or come close, what are you skipping? To win by T210, you basically have to ignore most of the things in the game as you simply have no time for them. I don't know how it's possible...

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Winning by T210 is close to impossible. It is akin to winning sub T190 in the base game in my opinion. If anything I am impressed that you managed to win a war against your neighbor, I almost always fail You should take some pride in that.

Honestly, some games are not winnable. It seems that in this specific case you just had no realistic chance. Remember that one save I posted where Egypt won a CV on T137 or something? I know it was due to an imbalance that Acken fixed later, but sometimes **** like that just happens. Sometimes the stars align and everything goes right.. For the AI. And you get to witness something ridic like this.

Usually on Deity the AI will finish SV around T230-260 from my experience. Earlier than T230 happens every now and then, later than 270 almost never.

 

[noto2]

I missed that post with a T137 Egypt win. Sounds hilarious. Speaking of Egypt, just 30 mins ago I started a game as good ol' Ramses. I went scout, scout, worker. I researched pottery and then archery and started building the Temple of Artemis. Yeah...nope. It's T23 and someone just finished.

Like...seriously.... T23 Temple of Artemis. What did they do, start building it from T1? I guess so. Ugh. This is the problem with single player games. In MP everything can be fair because it's human vs human, but in SP the AI is always a cakewalk in a fair game, so you have to give it major handicaps. This is wrecks the game for me. The AI is still terrible at war, but it can do things like a T23 ToA. Basically what this means is that many parts of the game are effectively off-limits.

This is why I've said time and again that Firaxis needs to either a) make the game MP friendly where it's actually enjoyable to play online, or b) focus on the AI above anything else.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

I've gotten TOA at like T50 or T60 on Demi/Deity, you're just being unlucky

That's always the thing with wonders tho.

 

[Tombaugh]

Some thoughts and ideas, you might think about in case of continued work on this mod:
the change to exploration (renaissance) seems to be necessary, however now it comes a bit to late. Could you remove the required tech education from astronomy, and instead make it a prerequisite for navigation? It would allow teching straight forward for caravels and exploration at the cost of delayed education
Indonesia:
instead of + 2 gold their luxuries could give +1 faith and + 1 production (for example)
and/or the capital could get the first luxury
morocco:
flat desert with kasbah is worse than ocean concerning yield, also chivalry is a rather late tech for tile improvement
+1 production for kasbahs ? an increasing bonus for trade routes also wouldn't be bad
france:
additional slot is probably dead? whats about a stronger palace?

 

[noto2]

Hey guys, I just cannot beat deity. Yung/Acken I have a question for you - have you ever beaten AM deity on continents? I really dislike playing pangea and always have, and ever since Civ2 I've always preferred some kind of continents map. It's debatable whether continents is more or less difficult than pangea, but I've run into the same problem with every deity game - by the time I meet the other continent there is a runaway AI that is just light years beyond me and there's absolutely nothing I can do about it.

In my last game, I decided to go with Rome and used legions to smash my two closest neighbours on my continent, effectively knocking them out of the game. I was very busy building universities everywhere so I delayed getting caravels but Darius showed up and introduced himself anyway, on T121. On T121 I had 10 cities (I razed many others) and 360 beakers/turn. Darius had 16 cities and 845 beakers/turn. He was first place in every category - most cities, most crop yield, most pop, biggest army, most tourism, culture, science, mfg, and GNP. He was 9 technologies ahead. He was just absolutely unstoppable.

A variation on this theme seems to happen in all my games. At Deity, I have learned to beat my immediate neighbours in early warfare, but dealing with anyone else seems out of the question. Once the game hits the industrial age I just can't compete with any AI that has anywhere near the same number of cities as I do, with the per era modifier their bonuses are off the charts. And if I instead try to go 4 city tall Tradition I'm hopelessly behind. By the time I get frigates/privateers, the AI will have planes and ironclads, at the very least.

I'm starting to think that with AM, deity is only winnable under certain map conditions. Or do I just suck?

 

[yung.carl.jung]

There was one guy who won Continents, he played as Ottomans on Epic or something. Way back in the thread, too, before I posted mine! You should try n find that. I personally never play Continents, don't care for an AI that can't use their navy

I don't think you suck at all.. Stopping a runaway is almost impossible on Deity. Your best bet is to get him/her into a war and trigger a chain denounce with clever diplomacy. If he is in a war try to steal all closeby CS allies and DOW him so he has to divert some troops for that. When does the AI usually finish SV/CV in your games? With good turf a t230 win should be possible for you, which is usually earlier than the AI will manage.

Damn, you've kinda made me curious. Maybe I will go back to Civ V just for you and test if I could actually beat Deity another time. As for now, why don't you just handpick your opponents? I know it feels like cheating and for me all my victories didn't "count" unless it was standard size/standard speed/pangea/random opponents, but it'd probably help to use less snowbally AIs.

It often happens btw that the AI will have planes long before you get to them. Often times I was fighting them with Gatling Guns and Arty and got bombed back to the stone age.. It is frustrating for sure, but that's kind of the point

 

[noto2]

The closest I got to winning was a 4 city Tradition game with Korea, and I went Freedom. I was only somewhat behind in science, like 5 techs behind the tech leader around ~T200, but the entire world went Order. Even though I had the most city state allies, everyone combined outvoted me in the WC and passed Order as the world ideology, and it just obliterated me. It's not like I ignored culture/tourism either, I really tried to keep up, but that's the problem with going Freedom. Every. Singe. Time. 90% of the time the AI will adopt Order, another 9% of the time it will take Autocracy. When going Freedom, I have to build up tourism at the same time as going for the space ship, and doing both things at the same time is very difficult. I dropped to -30 happiness and got double DoW'd. My army was big enough to hold them off, if it weren't for the happiness penalty to combat, and I was about to watch my cities flip. It was either that or change to Order after I had something like 6-7 Freedom policies, so I chalked that game up to a loss.

I just find that by around T100, one of the AIs will be on a meteoric rise, first place in every category, and just pull away. I think you're right, though, that in that case the best strategy is to try to get everyone to gang up on them. Problem is, when they have the biggest military, no one wants to fight them.

I'll look for that Ottoman game, thanks.

Btw, watching let's play deity videos from post BNW launch is mind-boggling. People were beating Deity in games where on T180 they had only 150 beakers/turn, fighting in the medieval era. In my games, by T180 I can have 3x that many beakers/turn and still not even have half the science output of the best AI, and the AI's are already well into the industrial era, closing in on modern. I don't understand how this is even the same game

I also play with nukes and Xcom disabled. That makes late game wars much more difficult.

 

[Tombaugh]

page 61

 

[noto2]

Hmm, I think you've inspired me to abandon continents. As much as I like the premise of it, it's true, the AI just can't handle it. I've seen the AI try to launch an intercontinental invasion, but never with any competence. I miss Civ4 where the AI could actually pull that off. I remember getting surprise DoW'd and then watching a fleet of transports full of marines, with battleships for bombardment, hit my unprepared coastal cities.

I really like naval combat, but the AI just ignores their navy unfortunately.

Hmm... what script to play...

 

[noto2]

Okay. I finally did it. I beat deity, and on pangea, too, but it feels like cheating tbh. The map gave me a little peninsula with a mountain and so there was only a strip of land one hex wide to get to me. The downside was I had only 3 luxuries on this peninsula and space for only 3 cities, but that wasn't a big deal since I was playing France and just wonderspamming like crazy. I eventually plopped a 4th city on an island.

So it was pangea but to get to me you had to go across water. There was a channel about 4 hexes across, or you had to go through my Thermopylae pass. So there I was, spamming wonders all day, and being peaceful and friendly with everyone, and cruising to victory, when Attila declared war and his military score was like 6x mine. I thought "oh boy, here we go". But nothing came of it. He had like 20 GWB, probably 20-30 ground units like GWI and artillery, and he even had a battleship and a couple of subs. I was fully expecting a massive invasion but it didn't happen. I rushed out some of my own naval units hoping to block his embarked force but all he did was pillage my fishing boats. I blew up his navy and waited.

Sighh. It was just a little channel, but apparently that's too much for the AI to handle. Had he actually invaded me with everything he had at that point I'm not sure I could have held him off, but he never bothered to embark any units and send them at me. It was an odd map and it gave me an easily defensible position, so I feel like that's the only reason I won (culture). I distinctly remember Civ4 AI hitting me with massive amphibious invasions of like 8 transports full of 25 marines to take my coastal cities, or even just landing huge stacks on my shore. I think I'm finally done with Civ5.

Anyway, Acken, thanks for making the AI much better. What games are you playing these days? Do you have any recommendations? Turn based is cool but I'm down for other genres too. Have you played any Galactic Civ3?

 

[adcarrymaokai]

@Acken do you plan to continue working on the mod? Civ6 doesn't compare so far...