Acken's Minimalistic Balance for singleplayer (and AI improvements)

[TheGrumpyBuddha]

Liberty isn't necessary. Expansion isn't necessary.

What is necessary is preventing the AI from expanding. How you do that is up to you.

And -- on Immortal+ at least -- doing it with the science you get from 4 cities is going to be damned tough.

 

[Chum]

And -- on Immortal+ at least -- doing it with the science you get from 4 cities is going to be damned tough.

Why do people think that if you select a policy in the Tradition tree that you have to only use 4 cities?

Come on. All you get is 4 aqueducts, 4 walls and 4 monuments. This is not a hurdle you can't overcome. You can self found 4 cities and take capitals and you'll do just fine. You can settle a 5th and 6th city on the massive amounts of excellent dirt after you've cleaned out the infidels. Gold is not a problem in Ackenland, you can buy A LOT. Look at that screenshot up there - I'm building Taj Mahal in my THIRD city, working on RESEARCH everywhere else and still have almost 8000g in the bank. Setting up cities 5 and 6 were not a problem at all.

 

[TheGrumpyBuddha]

Why do people think that if you select a policy in the Tradition tree that you have to only use 4 cities?

Come on. All you get is 4 aqueducts, 4 walls and 4 monuments. This is not a hurdle you can't overcome. You can self found 4 cities and take capitals and you'll do just fine. You can settle a 5th and 6th city on the massive amounts of excellent dirt after you've cleaned out the infidels. Gold is not a problem in Ackenland, you can buy A LOT. Look at that screenshot up there - I'm building Taj Mahal in my THIRD city, working on RESEARCH everywhere else and still have almost 8000g in the bank. Setting up cities 5 and 6 were not a problem at all.

Um, you were the one that said expansion isn't necessary, after I said how you can't survive with just 4 cities.

 

[Chum]

Um, you were the one that said expansion isn't necessary, after I said how you can't survive with just 4 cities.

It isn't. Take capitals if it suits you.

There's this thing with players where they assume that all of their expansion needs to be done prior to some arbitrary turn and that turn differs depending on which starting tree you picked. That might be true for an unmodded game, but this is a heavily modded game. Cash, faith, culture and science are all wildly different in this than in the base game. Adjust accordingly. If you try to turtle in this game, you're probably going to lose. But that doesn't mean that you need have 6 self founded cities by turn 60 or whatever BS people like to spew about the unmodded game to compete in this one.

 

[Phukit]

It isn't. Take capitals if it suits you.

There's this thing with players where they assume that all of their expansion needs to be done prior to some arbitrary turn and that turn differs depending on which starting tree you picked. That might be true for an unmodded game, but this is a heavily modded game. Cash, faith, culture and science are all wildly different in this than in the base game. Adjust accordingly. If you try to turtle in this game, you're probably going to lose. But that doesn't mean that you need have 6 self founded cities by turn 60 or whatever BS people like to spew about the unmodded game to compete in this one.

I think a lot of people (myself included at times) get caught up in hitting these crazy benchmarks posted by people who are clearly exceptional at the game.

a win is a win.

Your t290Cv is no less of a win because someone else posted a t245cv your t265 DomV is no less a win when someone posts a t225 DomV.

I know personally i need to focus more on just winning,once that happens regularly then and only then should i be stressing about shaving turns off my VC times

 

[Phukit]

Um, you were the one that said expansion isn't necessary, after I said how you can't survive with just 4 cities.

yes he did say that,but he also said that "stopping the AI from expanding" is necessary. and how we choose to do that is up to us.

so maybe that is thru expansion of your own,maybe its through war,conquest settler blocking/stealing ect

 

[TheGrumpyBuddha]

It isn't. Take capitals if it suits you.

There's this thing with players where they assume that all of their expansion needs to be done prior to some arbitrary turn and that turn differs depending on which starting tree you picked. That might be true for an unmodded game, but this is a heavily modded game. Cash, faith, culture and science are all wildly different in this than in the base game. Adjust accordingly. If you try to turtle in this game, you're probably going to lose. But that doesn't mean that you need have 6 self founded cities by turn 60 or whatever BS people like to spew about the unmodded game to compete in this one.

Your screenshot has you with very nice cities, but also at turn 216 and you're building the Taj Majal. And have less than 300 bpt. Sorry if I wasn't clear, I was talking Immortal+ strategies/necessities.

 

[Chum]

Your screenshot has you with very nice cities, but also at turn 216 and you're building the Taj Majal. And have less than 300 bpt. Sorry if I wasn't clear, I was talking Immortal+ strategies/necessities.

What turn do you think you get to things on in this game?

I'm really confused at what you're saying here. Are you trying to beeline architecture or something? Because that doesn't fly in this mod.

Pottery, AH, Lux techs, Construction, Iron Working, Machinery, Chivalry. These are your new necessities. If you think you need to beeline science to be competitive, you're incorrect. You need to beeline your survival.

 

[TheGrumpyBuddha]

What turn do you think you get to things on in this game?

I'm really confused at what you're saying here. Are you trying to beeline architecture or something? Because that doesn't fly in this mod.

Pottery, AH, Lux techs, Construction, Iron Working, Machinery, Chivalry. These are your new necessities. If you think you need to beeline science to be competitive, you're incorrect. You need to beeline your survival.

My original point was that you need to expand early because if you want enough units + enough science, you need lots of big healthy cities. On Pangea at least, a 4- or 5- city civ isn't going to cut it. Which goes back to my super-original point which is that a coastal start without sea resources can be fine, how big/awesome your cap is isn't as important as it was in the base game.

Anyway, I'm really confused about how someone playing on Prince or whatever is lecturing me on how to play the game, so let's just stop this conversation here.

 

[Chum]

My original point was that you need to expand early because if you want enough units + enough science, you need lots of big healthy cities. On Pangea at least, a 4- or 5- city civ isn't going to cut it. Which goes back to my super-original point which is that a coastal start without sea resources can be fine, how big/awesome your cap is isn't as important as it was in the base game.

Anyway, I'm really confused about how someone playing on Prince or whatever is lecturing me on how to play the game, so let's just stop this conversation here.

And you determined what difficulty level I'm on how?

I just wanna see how long you keep going with your foot in your mouth here.

 

[TheGrumpyBuddha]

And you determined what difficulty level I'm on how?

I just wanna see how long you keep going with your foot in your mouth here.

You referred to your screenshot bragging you were building the Taj Mahal in your 3rd city. Re that screenshot: I can see how much the AI expanded on your map, and that the Taj Mahal is still available turn 200+, and that you are doing well but you have <250 science on turn 214, where the AI often has ~1000 bpt at that point on the higher difficulties. Also, the CS still has pikemen running around.

It may not be Prince but I can't see how it's possibly Immortal+. And your facile advice of "just take their caps" is really hard to do when they have Riflemen and Battleships and you have Samurai and Frigates.

 

[Chum]

You referred to your screenshot bragging you were building the Taj Mahal in your 3rd city. Re that screenshot: I can see how much the AI expanded on your map, and that the Taj Mahal is still available turn 200+, and that you are doing well but you have <250 science on turn 214, where the AI often has ~1000 bpt at that point on the higher difficulties. Also, the CS still has pikemen running around.

It may not be Prince but I can't see how it's possibly Immortal+. And your facile advice of "just take their caps" is really hard to do when they have Riflemen and Battleships and you have Samurai and Frigates.

Cool, you took a multiplayer map I posted in regards to SEA RESOURCES and determined a bunch of things that have no relevance to sea resources.

Someone else can hold your hand then, I'm not going to waste my time with it anymore.

 

[TheGrumpyBuddha]

Cool, you took a multiplayer map I posted in regards to SEA RESOURCES and determined a bunch of things that have no relevance to sea resources.

Had no idea that this was about sea resources. I thought it was about taking capitals and setting up cities:

You can self found 4 cities and take capitals and you'll do just fine. You can settle a 5th and 6th city on the massive amounts of excellent dirt after you've cleaned out the infidels. Gold is not a problem in Ackenland, you can buy A LOT. Look at that screenshot up there - I'm building Taj Mahal in my THIRD city, working on RESEARCH everywhere else and still have almost 8000g in the bank. Setting up cities 5 and 6 were not a problem at all.

Someone else can hold your hand then, I'm not going to waste my time with it anymore.

Woot! It was a little creepy anyway. And somehow I'll struggle on without quality advice like "Just stop the AI = win".

 

[Phenril]

come on, stop arguing kidos.

played a few more turns of the mayans game, still no DoW, but getting so much AI's asking for combined wars, zulus and celts starts to destroy the world... i'm a bit scared of zulu's power spike, i'll prob ally celts and try to stop them when i hit machinery.

i know you'r aware of this, but AI and religion realy need an update, they dont fight for religion, didnt focus on it and managed to get pagodas religious community and itinerant prechers, which couldnt happen before with a turn 80+ enhance even on immortal.
The fact is that AI's doesnt seem to pick piety anymore, and doesnt focus on religious buildings. celts got early religion but they doesnt look agressively spreading their religion.


update of what happened till turn 90ish :
closest neighbour(babylon) which i crippeld early start to attack me and blocks my sea ressources, used liberty finisher's GE to get great walls, picked oracle just after, to go into piety and pick a reformation. i'll also go for Borobudur, making it the piety wonders is nice, but you'll need to fix AI Policy choices, cause it's allmost free Wonder now that AI doesnt pick piety anymore.
planning to settle a 6th city to defend against zulus and rome, and i'll try to conquer babylon's cities.

i'll try to post screenshots later.

 

[Nigel_Tufnel2]

Played my first v3 game as The Huns on Immortal (6) to turn 165, when a capital I was saving for last expanded into a road and I'm suddenly -119 gpt with no Workers anywhere near!

I did not do a classic DomV sweep, that is, I kept building both infrastructure and units, and so I was unable to clear the map with mostly HAs. Plus, of course, I HAD to build melee units. I had a 6 wheat 4 gold river start (!) and so went Tradition instead of Liberty or Honor (I later finished Honor too). Plus feeling the need to tech the bottom tree I was terribly late on NC and Unis. Plus I kept pretty much every city, to keep the AI from settling and screwing up my road networks.

Positives:

Spoiler :

I really like the early tech changes (especially Pikes to Chivalry). There was some competition for Piety, with Harun and Pacal taking 6 and 4 policies.

I really like the free Walls policy.

I was able to maintain several DOFs even though I was creating a lot of war penalties. Some very strong alliances were functioning as I would expect - common enemies/denouncements (w/o direct border pressure, FWIW). Oddly, everyone started chain denouncing poor Morocco who was my first victim and I was the aggressor. (?)

Negatives:

Spoiler :

I feel like food Caravans have been nerfed beyond being usable.

I was disappointed to find that Rams got pushed to Mathematics - it may be a good move, but I wanted to kick butt earlier!

The new trade dynamic was terribly irritating. (I am very much a creature of habit, to be fair.) I had so many weird trade bids - like the AI sometimes wanting 5 copies of a lux for one of mine, but they then usually settled for one lux and a few gpt, but sometimes way more. It was very confusing. I have always wanted the trade screen to give me the absolute best deal instead of me having to figure it out, it grows very tiresome. I can live with no more 2 gpt for strategics, but this dynamic seemed very strange. I would very much prefer the old system. (Maybe it's not optimal, but I always claim every lux I can get my hands on, if for nothing else than to deny it to a competitor, because I will need happy later for sure anyway. Of course the AI gets happy bonuses, but I see nothing wrong with the AI hording lux trades as well - hence always paying full price.)

Notes:

Spoiler :

Acken's v3 Immortal is definitely still harder than base Immortal, but not as hard as Deity, at least to turn 165...

It seemed like my melee units took more damage from city fire than from their own attacks, that seemed odd.

I was asked to join so many wars in the first 80 turns or so, it was nuts. I took advantage of several of them, as bribing was pretty much impossible before and after the conquests. -- Does anyone know if asking for a mutual DOW puts the function on hold for XX turns, the way you can't do DOFs for XX turns?

Even with 12 cities, all with Unis (7 puppeted), and an Academy, I was not catching up in tech. I had 2x the tech leader's pop. If I was the AI I would be running away by now.

There was not much competition for CS - there were a couple allied, but no heavy defense.

 

[Phukit]

When can we expect some tweaks to the UUs? I am particularily interested in impis.

while i agree with moving pikes to chivalry it really has shortened the window of usefulness for Impis.

 

[Acken]

When I'll go back to the drawing boards. You can always suggest changes in the mean time.

 

[Legen]

Played my first v3 game as The Huns on Immortal (6) to turn 165, when a capital I was saving for last expanded into a road and I'm suddenly -119 gpt with no Workers anywhere near!

Ouch. I assume you don't have a spare great general to put a citadel and claim the road?

 

[Nigel_Tufnel2]

Ouch. I assume you don't have a spare great general to put a citadel and claim the road?

Good idea! I was using three of them to blast my way through the GW at the time. I ended up just starting a new game - DomV often becomes very tedious to me, I was never going to lose, but the gpt hit would have set me back a fair bit!

 

[TheGrumpyBuddha]

Good idea! I was using three of them to blast my way through the GW at the time. I ended up just starting a new game - DomV often becomes very tedious to me, I was never going to lose, but the gpt hit would have set me back a fair bit!

Until you have at least a tech lead I think that's perhaps a bit overconfident .

I gave up on trying to win with Odo on Immortal, next attempt is going with Monte w/raging barbs. Definitely fun but I do get attack-the-AI-fatigue eventually, which is dangerous.

Acken -- btw, when Monte takes Honor, he seems to be getting double culture from the barb kills, like he would in the base game, not 150%.