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Acularius' GEM for Caveman2Cosmos

The problem is "Minornationstatus=1". Either it's bugged or it does not what it seems to be. Setting Minornationstatus=0 and keeping START_AS_MINORS should be sufficient but without actually playing one can't be certain.
Is it intended that some civs start with a city and others simply as tribes? And one other thing I've noticed with nearly all scenarios is that regardless how the game speed is set up before the start of the game it always defaults to Eternity on start.
 
I'm just pulling from a previous copy of GEM...
This isn't my old laptop with my handy dandy shortcuts. *sigh* I miss that beast.

Open up the file with notepad, and find the beginning of BeginTeam section, to the last bit of the 'EndTeam' before PlayerBegin
Code: 
BeginTeam
	TeamID=0
	ContactWithTeam=0
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=1
	ContactWithTeam=1
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=2
	ContactWithTeam=2
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=3
	ContactWithTeam=3
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=4
	ContactWithTeam=4
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=5
	ContactWithTeam=5
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=6
	ContactWithTeam=6
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=7
	ContactWithTeam=7
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=8
	ContactWithTeam=8
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=9
	ContactWithTeam=9
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=10
	ContactWithTeam=10
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=11
	ContactWithTeam=11
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=12
	ContactWithTeam=12
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=13
	ContactWithTeam=13
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=14
	ContactWithTeam=14
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=15
	ContactWithTeam=15
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=16
	ContactWithTeam=16
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=17
	ContactWithTeam=17
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=18
	ContactWithTeam=18
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=19
	ContactWithTeam=19
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=20
	ContactWithTeam=20
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=21
	ContactWithTeam=21
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=22
	ContactWithTeam=22
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=23
	ContactWithTeam=23
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=24
	ContactWithTeam=24
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=25
	ContactWithTeam=25
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=26
	ContactWithTeam=26
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=27
	ContactWithTeam=27
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=28
	ContactWithTeam=28
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=29
	ContactWithTeam=29
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=30
	ContactWithTeam=30
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=31
	ContactWithTeam=31
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=32
	ContactWithTeam=32
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=33
	ContactWithTeam=33
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=34
	ContactWithTeam=34
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=35
	ContactWithTeam=35
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=36
	ContactWithTeam=36
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=37
	ContactWithTeam=37
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=38
	ContactWithTeam=38
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=39
	ContactWithTeam=39
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=40
	ContactWithTeam=40
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=41
	ContactWithTeam=41
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=42
	ContactWithTeam=42
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=43
	ContactWithTeam=43
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=44
	ContactWithTeam=44
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=45
	ContactWithTeam=45
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=46
	ContactWithTeam=46
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=47
	ContactWithTeam=47
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=48
	ContactWithTeam=48
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam
BeginTeam
	TeamID=49
	ContactWithTeam=49
	RevealMap=0
EndTeam

Looking at your file, that checks out.

You do have minornations=1 checked on for all of them, so I would recommend removing all such occurrences by setting it to 0.
Actually, it might be the old minornation error... I think that might be the cause. If I recall as I had a similar problem in the initial re vamp of the GEM scenario.

Not sure why you have starting gold set to 500 either.
 
Stormwind said:
The problem is "Minornationstatus=1". Either it's bugged or it does not what it seems to be. Setting Minornationstatus=0 and keeping START_AS_MINORS should be sufficient but without actually playing one can't be certain.
Is it intended that some civs start with a city and others simply as tribes? And one other thing I've noticed with nearly all scenarios is that regardless how the game speed is set up before the start of the game it always defaults to Eternity on start.
Click to expand...

the city thing is something that just happened and I'm no sure how to fix it. ill try removing the speed part in the file and see if that works along with changing the minor nations thing. i was testing different starting settings for balance and they must have somehow become stuck. i think clearing game options will fix that. I've mostly been trying to fix the contact thing and haven't been able to look at outer things.
 
You have to open it as the first civ in the list. The cities were founded because if you select a civ for playing that is not at the first place of this list, all the others go first and found their cities. I think if you replace them with the band of homo Sapiens again and save as scenario it should just work. (But when you do that and leave the WB you probably lose the game)
 
Redwallzyl said:
Added
Sugar loaf mountain in Maryland
Some coral to represent the red coral that was traded from the Mediterranean.
Tall grass in grasslands
Obsidian by Hungary and an empty island below japan and Sardinia.
Put a bog in Estonia
Some random stuff

Removed
Some bogs
Some previous minor changes

Moved some figs and grapes as to make fore better city placement areas in south italy

If someone would like to put in some rock outcrops that would be nice.:goodjob:

Any feed back would be greatly appreciated its taken me quite a few hours researching and placing and I probably missed things.

I reuploaded the map 2 save
Click to expand...

Please do NOT remove or move things unless you can provide accurate, historical reasons why they shouldn't be there. The mushrooms on the Roman start tile, the bogs your removed (why did you change them?), and the original locations of figs and grapes in Italy, in particular, are historically supported. There is also no reason for a Rainwater Basin in Illinois (not only do I currently live there- and can personally tell you it would *NOT* qualify as the right type of terrain for that, but there is also no historical reasoning for it), the addition of an extra island south of Sardinia (why did you add this?), or the addition of Tall Grass to most grasslands (Tall Grass represents extremely tall grasses- typically several meters tall or more- only found in certain niches on Earth). *I WOULD ASK THAT YOU REVERT* any changes you made to these unless you can provide reasoning for the changes.


Sugarloaf Mountain does *NOT* refer to the mountain in Maryland (nor the mountain of the same name in Massachusetts). I can understand why you may have been confused by this, since there are several Sugarloaf Mountains in the world, but it actually refers to Sugarloaf Mountain in Brazil:

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/571979/Sugar-Loaf


It sounds like you made quite a few changes, a great number of them historically inaccurate, and starting before you understood how to use WB Cleaner properly.


I would strongly request you start over again, from the last updated GEM I posted, not from the version in the current release of C2C. This time, please create a list of each individual change, identified tile-by-tile where possible, and historical support for it. Use WB Cleaner to avoid the visibility and diplomatic contact issues you encountered before.


If you can't find historical support for a change, then it shouldn't be made to the map. Note this reasoning does *NOT* extend to removing features- just because you weren't personally able to find the reason for a bonus or feature, does NOT mean support does not exist for it, or it shouldn't be in GEM.


Regards,
Northstar
 
Here are a list of several changes you would be wise to focus on, as there IS historical support for them:

- Addition of the Aurora wonders (do your research on where the auroras are most visible, this should *NOT* be done of whim or preconception)
- Addition of the Dead Sea wonder "bonus"
- Addition of Rocky Outcrops to Northern and Sarahan Africa (once again, do your research- and do NOT place them on the same tiles as existing bonuses or features- as these were placed for a reason, and need to be accessible tiles to reflect their historical importance.)
- Addition of an Obsidian resource to Corsica. The Lead deposit in Corsica can be moved to one tile west of the Mushrooms in Northwest Italy (do NOT remove the Mushrooms)- there is no bonus here, and NW Italy historically has been an important area for lead-mining (for this reason, it already contained Lead before I moved it to make room for the current Jade deposit- which is more historically important.)
- Conversion of some of the existing Forest tiles to Ancient Forest tiles where appropriate (please DO NOT alter any bonuses, features, or base terrain on these tiles- this should not need saying). Ancient Forests should represent the tallest, largest, and most biodiverse old-growth/primeval forests in the world. Please be careful in your research.


If you focus on just making these changes, and doing your research properly for them (this part was lacking in your previous changes), you will have made a valuable contribution to the GEM.

Please don't forget to post links and research for your changes- otherwise your research is as good as having never been done. For example, here are my links supporting Obsidian in Corsica:

http://www.aggsbach.de/2013/10/segmented-obsidian-blades-from-corsica/

http://luna.cas.usf.edu/~rtykot/PR30 - ACS 2002 obsidian.pdf


Note that choosing Corsica as the location for Obsidian is actually a proxy for Sardinia- which was historically a much more important source of Obsidian, as can be seen in the second link. However, Corsica did contain minor Obsidian deposits, both bonus slots in Sardinia are currently utilized, and addition of Obsidian to southern Sardinia would create the additional problem of putting Obisidian within the Big Fat Cross of the Carthaginian start site (North Africa was *NOT* rich in obsidian, unlike the Italian islands). Addition to northern Sardinia would create the problem of displacing the Silver resource there (another historically important resource that should not be available to Carthage's initial Big Fat Cross).


Regards,
Northstar
 
Faustmouse said:
You have to open it as the first civ in the list. The cities were founded because if you select a civ for playing that is not at the first place of this list, all the others go first and found their cities. I think if you replace them with the band of homo Sapiens again and save as scenario it should just work. (But when you do that and leave the WB you probably lose the game)
Click to expand...

He needs to use WB Cleaner. There are a number of other artifacts that will persist from his changes (including saved difficulty level, along with it associated modifiers, and civilization selections in the case of the No Preset map) otherwise.


Please see the last couple pages of this thread. And please, once again, go off my latest updated version of GEM for all future updates to the GEM if you consider the changes made to it acceptable.


Regards,
Northstar
 
i was mostly just experimenting this is my first time using the world builder. i asked for feed back so thank you i can make the changes. i did not add some of those things like the outcrops and if you want links i can provide links. this was mainly me messing around with the mapmaker. i removed some bogs that i had put earlier because they took up to many of the tiles and the i saw the basin tile and that was what came up. also i did not add any islands.
 
I added mangroves. It would be nice if they could be placeable like trees on coasts or on a different layer.
http://na.unep.net/geas/getUNEPPageWithArticleIDScript.php?article_id=103

Obsidian in various places listed here but not all. I replaced the stone on the island near Greece with obsidian they have another source of stone near by and it should work the same hammer wise weal giving them another resource. technically is on another island with a volcano that the relic is currently on but i think this works better for access.
http://www.mindat.org/min-8519.html
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1835-9310.1982.tb01243.x/abstract

added basalt organ

Auroras in the most popular far north viewing locations and Tasmania. South America and New Zealand are mentioned in the description so those are possible sights along with some parts of Russia.
http://wikitravel.org/en/Northern_Lights

bogs should also be added as well as grass. the description mentions the UK and cactus in places as well. I will work on the outer stuff later.
 
First of all, did you start off from my updated version of the GEM, or from the version that came standard with Caveman2Cosmos? Once again, you should work off my last uploaded revised version to avoid having multiple conflicting versions for addition to the SVN.

Redwallzyl said:
I added mangroves. It would be nice if they could be placeable like trees on coasts or on a different layer.
http://na.unep.net/geas/getUNEPPageWithArticleIDScript.php?article_id=103
Click to expand...

Be *VERY* careful about where you add Mangroves. Although they are an important part of many ecosystems in real life, they generally block city founding and resource exploitation in C2C.

You need to look *carefully* at whether each tile is a site that contains large numbers of Mangroves or only a small population, whether they occupy a sufficient land area and such a position in real life as to reasonably require clearing to found a city or exploit resources in this location, and if they are a key part of the ecosystem in the area or if a jungle or forest tile would describe the terrain over such a large area better.



Redwallzyl said:
Obsidian in various places listed here but not all. I replaced the stone on the island near Greece with obsidian they have another source of stone near by and it should work the same hammer wise weal giving them another resource. technically is on another island with a volcano that the relic is currently on but i think this works better for access.
http://www.mindat.org/min-8519.html
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1835-9310.1982.tb01243.x/abstract
Click to expand...

The links you provided only link to a general (dictionary-style) description on what Obsidian is (there is a map- but it seems to be an incomplete list of modern obsidian deposits not necessarily verified for accuracy and relative importance- and lacks many key historical deposits outside of the heavily-studied ones in the western United States, only listing a single European site north of Romania for instance), and an article on a discovery of an obsidian source in New Guinea in the 1980's.

None of this has anything to do with obsidian sources near Greece (which is on the OTHER SIDE of the world from New Guinea), and you'll have to provide more research than this to justify adding such an important resource early on there- especially as this creates the *EXTREMELY* powerful early combination of obsidian and stone in the same city radius for certain tiles in Greece (providing Flint- which offers not only additional gold and hammers but a large boost to production of Obsidian-Weapons units).


Keep in mind redundant resources are acceptable (and in the case of resources like Stone, necessary for export without losing resource benefits)- and even distribution is actually not desirable or accurate. Historical resource asymmetries created much of the impetus for early conquests and exploitation in human history (the Roman invasion of Britain, for instance, could be viewed as significantly motivated by a desire to obtain the island's sources of lead, gold, and tin), and certain regions should and did have excess resources that led to the local nations exporting surplus resources to the rest of the world...

(Britain in particular comes to mind- despite the high value of tin in the Bronze Age, the island produced far more of the metal than could be used locally- and so was regularly sold to the highest bidders in the Mediterranean. The Greeks and pre-Iron Age Romans in particular competed fiercely with each other and additional nations to purchase this tin from the Britons- as they lacked sufficient local sources. The metal was exported at great cost and danger to the Mediterranean by sea, via the Strait of Gibraltar. The strategic implications and cost of this reliance on long-distance naval trade was one of the reasons for the eventual Roman move towards use of locally available iron in weapons: which favored sword-use over spear-use due to iron's lower density and toughness, and thus relative penetrating power, but superior ability to hold an edge- whereas the Greeks were significantly slower to switch from the superior toughness, somewhat higher density, and imperviousness to rust that bronze offered their spear-reliant Hoplites compared to iron...)

Redwallzyl said:
added basalt organ

Auroras in the most popular far north viewing locations and Tasmania. South America and New Zealand are mentioned in the description so those are possible sights along with some parts of Russia.
http://wikitravel.org/en/Northern_Lights

bogs should also be added as well as grass. the description mentions the UK and cactus in places as well. I will work on the outer stuff later.
Click to expand...

The link provided relates only to the northern lights. Where exactly does it say anything about cacti or grass?
 
Redwallzyl said:
yes i used the latest version and the things at the bottom are just things that could be added.
Click to expand...

OK, it's good that you used the latest version. Now what about the Obsidian you said you placed on the island near Greece. Where is the research that supports that? (if any) You mentioned an extinct volcano- so I'm assuming you must have found something in the way of evidence/facts.

Once gain we can't just go around plopping down Obsidian just because we feel it improves the game "balance"- the GEM map is supposed to be as perfect a replica of the actual Earth circa 50,000 BC as possible- with a few exceptions such as the coastlines being modern due to our inability to properly program rising/falling sea levels (technically we could make use of the same mechanic seen with Global Warming pollution with some scripted events- but the effects would probably be hard to predict and accurately design around), and occasional inaccuracies due to the limitations of map resolution and gameplay mechanics (for instance there is no tile for "island jungle with a strip of mangrove coastline on only one side- so this tile would just end up being jungle as there would be plenty or room for city construction here).

The realistic map asymmetries means that certain start locations *WILL* be weaker or stronger- as they were in real life. There's a reason Rome, starting off in resource-rich and fertile Italy, conquered much of Europe in the Classical period rather than say, the Vikings- and it would be entirely inaccurate and broken to expect the Vikings to have an equal chance at world domination compared to the Romans when both in AI hands (the vikings *did* eventually conquer a huge empire- but much of that was due to picking off the rich plunder available with the collapse of the Roman Empire, and the barbaric Vikings' much greater emphasis on having a larger warrior class instead of a powerful economy. This can easily repeat itself in-game even with a civilization with a weak starting position like the Vikings- should a larger empire destabilize and collapse for some reason, such as multiple successful simultaneous invasions and Revolutions mod uprisings.)



Regards,
Northstar



P.S. The Roman Empire, despite having a large military in absolute terms, had one of the smallest known ratios of soldiers:citizens and land area in history until the modern/industrial era. Although their soldiers were highly trained and *much* more effective on a man-for-man basis than foreign soldiers, they were outnumbered more than 20:1 by foreign invaders during the days of the collapse and fall of the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire could be considered by any Civ player's definition to have been a large, soft, highly-developed target that was extremely appealing for more heavily armed but primitive foreigners to invade.


P.P.S. My playstyle is similar to the Romans' pattern- and like the Romans, I often tend to get invaded by more warlike but primitive neighbors. I fully expect history to repeat itself in my current Caveman2Cosmos game if I'm not careful- despite starting as Rome, in their extremely powerful start location. In games where I can command my troops, like Rome Total War, I'm an extremely talented commander, and make up for my lack of military focus that way- often carrying vastly outnumbered militia assigned to garrison/defense duty to stunning (if low-survival) victories against far superior opponents. But unfortunately, there is no such thing as tactical command in Caveman2Cosmos...
 
Enough lecturing and self-aggrandizement though. Could you try posting a text file with a list of each and every change you make (and the research+links for it) to my last uploaded GEM, written AS YOU MAKE THE CHANGES, like I've done? This would be extremely helpful in everyone judging which changes are a good idea, and which ones (if any) would be better left out of the next GEM version.


Try and list the changes as you make them (so you don't forget any or lose track), tile by tile. Be specific- for instance "added two forest tiles to the westernmost tiles of the island directly north of X", or "moved the Y resource and replaced with with Obsidian. Placed a new Y resource on the island two tiles to the east."



Regards,
Northstar
 
What I tended to do is opt for a 'Pre-Columbian' exchange.

Otherwise Europe would be rather devoid of a lot of cereal crops aside from Barley. (If I remember correctly).
The glorious horse would be stuck in the Urals.
Since Great Farmers tend to represent Post-Columbian exchanges rather than the spread of cereal crops from the Fertile Crescent... that and there is NOTHING to stop the spread of more fragile crops.

Hence why I started titling the scenario 'Pre-Columbian' as the original GEM scenario was already in a good position where I could make this cut off.
 
Not sure what that was about regarding Pre-columbian Exchange Ascularius (or what prompted you to inform us about that), but I wanted to propose another important map change:


"Sheep" should be added near the northeast Julian Alps. Specifically, on the tile two tiles east of Devil's Table.

This area, now part of eastern Switzerland and western Austria, is particularly famous for its sheep herders and breeds. It has been a traditional area for sheep herding for over a thousand years, and since there is no way to spread sheep like there is many of the other animals (there is now sheep herd building- only goats), the resource needs to be placed on the map. This will also lead to spawning of animals that yield goat herds when settled (Mouflon/Ibex)- which is important as this is also an area goats are native to.


Research Links:

http://books.google.com/books?id=aN...EwDA#v=onepage&q=sheep northeast alps&f=false

http://www.sheep101.info/breedsT-V.html

Note the 'Steinschaf' breed in the second link. This sheep breed is native to, and originated from, the eastern Alps around the area I am talking about.


Eventually, I will probably release a more updated version of the GEM with sheep on that tile, Obsidian on Corsica, and the lead I moved to Corsica (to make room for Jade- and reflect Corsican lead deposits) moved back to northwest Italy one tile west of the Mushrooms bonus there. I am currently play-testing these changes in a version based only off my own edits.

I've just been waiting for Redwallyzl to get his act together with the map edits he is making, and only make edits that *SHOULD* be made (some of his earliest edits were inaccurate and need to be reverted- such as the addition of Sugarloaf Mountain to Maryland- the mountain is in Brazil), so that I can work off his version instead of creating a parallel version off my own earlier edits alone.


Regards,
Northstar


P.S. I haven't had time to load and test the latest map uploaded by Redwallyzl yet, but I am going off the description of his changes. Clearly if he thought that Sugarloaf Mountain was in Maryland, and removed the mushrooms bonus from Central Italy now knowing they were historically common/important in this location (especially to the early Romans), and went about building his latest version on this and other inaccurate changes- then it will be flawed even if his more recent additions are accurate.
 
Northstar1989 said:
Once gain we can't just go around plopping down Obsidian just because we feel it improves the game "balance"- the GEM map is supposed to be as perfect a replica of the actual Earth circa 50,000 BC as possible- with a few exceptions such as the coastlines being modern due to our inability to properly program rising/falling sea levels (technically we could make use of the same mechanic seen with Global Warming pollution with some scripted events- but the effects would probably be hard to predict and accurately design around), and occasional inaccuracies due to the limitations of map resolution and gameplay mechanics (for instance there is no tile for "island jungle with a strip of mangrove coastline on only one side- so this tile would just end up being jungle as there would be plenty or room for city construction here).
Click to expand...

Northstar1989 said:
Not sure what that was about regarding Pre-columbian Exchange Ascularius (or what prompted you to inform us about that),
Click to expand...

Nothing terrible, this is generally what prompted my opinion on trying to keep things Pre-Columbian, in the grand scheme of things in terms of resource spread, you will also have a higher likelihood of finding more solid (maybe not perfect) evidence of where resources were at this point in the 'natural resource' scheme of things.

Mainly because C2C can't really represent the spread of the natural resources, the cereal crops for, out of certain areas (the Fertile crescent), nor is there any way to limit that spread with the advent of the Great Farmer... although it HAS done a good job of the natural spread of tamed animals like cattle and asses, through the 'tamed animal' system.

I just felt that I should point out a the principle guideline which guided the early (which really spawned out of the changed from the bauxite resource for me replacing aluminum) untouched version of GEM to the more recent developments I'm currently seeing.

Just wanted to toss out my two cents.

Cheers,
Acularius
 
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