Adding a Spark to the Malakim

[Verdian]

So, lately a lot of people have been talking about making some of the "weaker" civilizations stronger. Most of the suggestions for the Malakim have had to do with their being nomads and living in the desert. I want to move away from that, as they already have a few benefits regarding those things.

Doing some searches in the lore forum, I found some of the following words that describe the Malakim: guardians, truth, and openness. So, I thought I would concentrate on these. What these suggest to me is an honest people, one you can trust and work with well. So, going on this, I would like to make a few suggestions to reach the following goal for the Malakim: make them the best ally you could have in FFH. Here are some possible ways to go about doing that.

1) Grant bonuses to civilizations that have open borders and alliances with the Malakim. This could be bonuses to production, due to the Malakim helping to work hard in ally's cities, or just them setting a positive example. It could be a bonus to commerce, due to the extra trade that the honest relations with the Malakim brings in. This could work both ways, with the Malakim and the ally receiving the benefit, or just one way (give the Malakim + or + for each civilization they share open borders with). This would encourage the Malakim and other civilizations to want to have open borders and peace with the Malakim. Increase the relationship bonus the Malakim give, as well.

2) In a similiar fashion to the above, grant open border civilizations with the same religion as the Malakim a happiness bonus. The Malakim are very honest and open in their religious dealings, and the other civs appreciate this.

3) Grant the Malakim the ability to gift units to other civilizations. I know this caused a lot of problems before, but if it was just limited to their archery line or melee line perhaps that would keep the problems in check. It would enable the Malakim to help their allies without destroying the peace they had created. Make it so you can only gift units in another players city. If it could be made temporary, to only last 5 or 10 turns, that could help stop a player from just gifting allies entire armies for forever. It fits the guardian aspect of Lugus, but perhaps it is not the most honest way to wage war...

One or all of these would make the Malakim an excellent ally to any civ, and encourage peace between the various civilizations. Criticism and thoughts are welcome.

 

[Kael]

Those are pretty cool ideas. I'll have to think about it, I like thats its mechanics that we've never used anywhere else. Very original ideas.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I still really think that the Desert Shrine UB should grant +1xp to disciple units built in the city for all desert tiles in the city radius. They are supposed to be desert mystics who use the hardship and isolation of the desert to increase contemplation and grow closer to god/Lugus. It is only logical for the priests who come out of their most isolated settlements to be far more spiritually aware, letting them become high priests almost as soon as they are built.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

I like #1 and Magister's ideas the best. Magister's in particular fixes a serious problem: The Malakim are supposed to be all priestly and stuff yet they have worse priests than a fair chunk of civs (all the ones with spiritual, Grigori) and the same priests as the rest.

I never used gifting when we still had it so I don't like that idea. Any perk given to the Malakim should actually do something.

As for #2... if the AI could be taught to value this bonus happiness and as such be less inclined to cancel open borders/backstab, it's a good idea. Might be more trouble than it's worth, though, and if so... forget it. You're helping a competitor with no additional benefit or security to yourself. That's a NERF.

 

[Verdian]

As for #2... if the AI could be taught to value this bonus happiness and as such be less inclined to cancel open borders/backstab, it's a good idea. Might be more trouble than it's worth, though, and if so... forget it. You're helping a competitor with no additional benefit or security to yourself. That's a NERF.

The benefit for the player would be the increased relationship modifier and the knowledge that he was safe from attack. As you said, that would only work if the AI could be taught to recognize it. But honestly, the main reason I suggested it was so human players would have a good reason to want to ally with the Malakim. The AI can be tricked into prefering alliances with the Malakim through variables, but a human players needs a reason.

Also, in a game where I am not going for a conquest victory, I like to see my allies doing well. If your best friend is doing well and is strong, you in turn are afforded a bit more safety. I don't really see that as a nerf, especially if you are going for non-combat victories.

 

[rief_s]

Doing some searches in the lore forum, I found some of the following words that describe the Malakim: guardians, truth, and openness. So, I thought I would concentrate on these. What these suggest to me is an honest people, one you can trust and work with well. So, going on this, I would like to make a few suggestions to reach the following goal for the Malakim: make them the best ally you could have in FFH.

I like this too. Make them good traders. They will trade with anyone, good, neutral, or evil and favor Foreign Trade. They won't make wars or engage in other wars. But they are more likely to sign Defensive Pact. They will still have decent military to support their pact.

They stay in their religion but won't try to make other to adopt it. Instead others can learn Malakim religion in Malakim city. They focus on disciple/priest but not for warfare. Instead they use their disciple as traders. Maybe make disciple can do trade mission. Priest could add trade route on non Malakim city when present. So other will gain benefit by having Malakim priest in their city.

They will grow by making large land trading empire, not by enhancing their land.

 

[jan030]

hm, I like the idea of Verdian, but it sounds the malakim are going to be a second....(blue goodytwoshoes...ethne the white...forgot their nakem sorry)
I like playing the malakim very much, but i hate it while playing against them, i always end up in war with them even when neutral....... Dont know why but perhpas that might be a problem to be solved when making them more open?

 

[Domingo]

Same, Varn Gosam is probably the most "crusading" of the good Civs in my games, and usually ends up at war with everyone. I wonder if the Malakim wouldn't also benefit from another leader with the Financial trait (I know Varn can get it, but it's not the same).

 

[Verdian]

hm, I like the idea of Verdian, but it sounds the malakim are going to be a second....(blue goodytwoshoes...ethne the white...forgot their nakem sorry)

The Elohim. The Elohim and the Malakim are a little similiar in their dispositions. Both are Good and generally viewed as wise, both are heavily into their religion, both want to protect the world. The difference, in my opinion, is that the Elohim accomplish these goals by looking inward, while the Malakim look outward.

For example, the Elohim are defenders. They build their monastaries and walls and watch over the great places of the world. This is how the seek to protect it. Their world spell show this very well.

The Malakim take opposite approach. They are wanderers that spread their religion and way of life as they go. Again, the world spell is a nice demonstration of this.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

since they are supposed to be priests and traders, they should have the best priests around and have a very strong economy (someone said favoring foreign trade and trading with other civs in general? I agree ). and of course a good synergy with deserts

this thread http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=294155 has a lot of good ideas in it imho

 

[Fafnir13]

Not that it seems to have much of an effect now(that I know of), but it might be consistent with their religious theme if more of their units than normal would adopt a religion.
I also like the one giving additional xp, but I think it might add excessive bonuses to flood plain cities...

 

[Grand Seeker]

Somebody proposed to give them a flying carpet as a UU replacement for horse, and I would realy love that unit.

 

[Imuratep]

I also think these ideas are great. It would differenciate the Malakim strongly in playstyle from other civilizations, so i'd love to see them imcluded in 0.35 (because right now they are rather boring, besides Varn Gosam having excellent traits).
Speaking of the similarities of the Elohim and the Malakim, to whom would it fit more to get , and/or boni for their temples? Because both seem very religious to me (though strangely none of them is spiritual), so I thought there has to be one of them, who should get this. The Elohim have monks so probably them (In Europe monasteries were mostly self-supporters), but I don't know enough about the story of both civilizations to give a certain judgement.
I also think there should either be another leader for the Malakim, perhaps one, who is spiritual on his own, or you should change Varn Gosams fixed trait to financial. Adaptive is so useless on him, because seriously who changes the best trait in the game to ruin his economy? Creative on the other hand is a early game power house in the first 100-200 turns, but then is quite useless so changing it to spiritual would be very synergistic with the Worldspell of the Malakim

 

[Avahz Darkwood]

I think number three should be for the Hippus not Malakim

 

[Kael]

I dont like the desert shine grants +1 xp per desert because its useless if the malakim dont happen to be in a desert area. I hate to have players starting over again and again trying to get a start position in a desert area.

What if the Malakim got +4 xp for their disciple units. And anyone who shared their state religion got +4 xp for their disciple units?

That would go a long way toward what Verdian was getting at in making relationships with the Malakim more important (in particular going with their religion or getting them to go with yours) and enforceing their role as our best priests.

I dont want to force friendliness with them (the bonus would last even if you were are war with them) but a shared state religion does mean that they are more likely to be good neighbors to them (especially since they value religion so much) and if they leave the game the bonus is gone entirely. Making players think about jumping in and saving them.

Thoughts?

 

[hbar]

I dont like the desert shine grants +1 xp per desert because its useless if the malakim dont happen to be in a desert area. I hate to have players starting over again and again trying to get a start position in a desert area.

Well, there's always Scorch, so that extends it to plains as well.

What if the Malakim got +4 xp for their disciple units. And anyone who shared their state religion got +4 xp for their disciple units?

That would go a long way toward what Verdian was getting at in making relationships with the Malakim more important (in particular going with their religion or getting them to go with yours) and enforceing their role as our best priests.

I give this a hearty meh. It's nice, but its been done before with other, more warmonger-y civs. I think in combination with some of the OP's ideas, though, it would work quite well.

I dont want to force friendliness with them (the bonus would last even if you were are war with them) but a shared state religion does mean that they are more likely to be good neighbors to them (especially since they value religion so much) and if they leave the game the bonus is gone entirely. Making players think about jumping in and saving them.

Thoughts?

If you combined the open borders trade bonii with the free disciple xp, I think you'd have a really unique, dynamical civ. There would be a downside to war (losing commerce), but there would still be a bonus (free XP).

One more idea on the "desert dweller=good traders" theme expounded in the Malakim Desert Mechanics thread - what if their extra resources brought in commerce or gold?

 

[Kael]

Well, there's always Scorch, so that extends it to plains as well.I give this a hearty meh. It's nice, but its been done before with other, more warmonger-y civs. I think in combination with some of the OP's ideas, though, it would work quite well.

What warmongery civs are you refering to that give other civs bonus xp?

 

[hbar]

Whoops, my bad. I was thinking of either the Illians or the Doviello, but they only got the free XP for their own troops.

 

[fuzzy_bunnies]

Thumbs up to the open borders giving production bonuses idea. Combine this with the desert tile bonus and you start to have a civ that can potentially get nice start-up cities even if built in the desert but isn't purely terraforming based.

Still against desert shrine though, esp with regards to using scorch. I think it would be weird and unthematic to have a city in the middle of their lush plains surrounded by desert just because that's the priest production city. I'd support this if scorch and spring were removed.

Regarding the 4xp for shared religion, how about shared religion + open borders? Shared religion by itself doesn't seem like something that would give extra knowledge though open borders with the crusading Malakim might.

OTOH, its a decent mechanic either way.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

This reminds me of a thought I had some time ago, not really Malakim specific, but I think any trade route you have with a civ that you share a religion with should get a hefty (+50% or +100%) bonus.
Rationale being that the ai gets a relationship bonus with the player when they share a religion, but the player has no incentive not to backstab ai's with the same religion, so that just kind of sets the ai up.
But in the end it's probably too small a bonus to effect decision making anyway.


I think this could be adapted to the Malakim to incentivize the same behavior as your suggestions. Every trade route they have with a city (not their own cities, though) with the same religion gives them a significant bonus. (To make this more doable, their own trade routes should be more profitiable, like a "Skilled traders" +50% modifier on any trade routes to the Malakim, same religion or not)

First trade route to a neighbor with your state religion could give +2 base commerce
Second, +2 hammers, +2 food
Third, free specialist
Fourth, +3 free XP for all units.
(just ideas)

So what the Malakim player would want to do would be a) get lots of trade routes, and b) only have open borders with players that share their religion

Maybe couple this with giving their melee line the old evangelist mechanic, just for flavor.