Adding Custom Civilizations to base VP

[pineappledan]

A long time ago there was a discussion about rolling 2 more civilizations in with the base Vox Populi install, bringing the total number of civs up to 45.

I wanted to make a poll about what custom civs people would want to see added, if any?

Details for custom civs balanced for vox populi can be found in the Compatible Civilizations Showcase

 

[Stalker0]

My only question would be.... are there any memory issues with adding more base civs to the mod, as we are always pushing on that memory limit. I don't know if just having the civ files impacts the memory at all.

 

[Nightmare Dusk]

Only problem i have with adding more civs is that they don't have 3 and 4th uniques made for them, as far as I'm aware, so somebody would have to create some in order for the 2 mods to work together. if people are up to the extra work, then I'm all for adding more civs

 

[Snipergw]

I voted for Khmer before looking at the linked thread and seeing Suryavarman II's Khmer there. My vote was intended for Sukritact's Khmer Empire for Vox Populi by threadstarter, which I think is the best custom Civ for VP (by a decent margin). Which one is actually the one in the poll?

For the topic in general, I'm in favor of this measure (although 50 is rounder than 45 ). I do worry about bugs and general polish but I don't think its a huge issue, most of the mods are already pretty smooth (in both function and form!) and only needs a shine up. And if bugs were present they would probably be rooted out in a version or two. Not a huge fan of the Israel option, but I guess we've already got pseudo-historical mythical nations with Dido's Carthage. I prefer Herod's Judea to represent that area/people, but sadly nobody ported it. But I think some news Civs is just the right thing we need to spice up the game a bit.

 

[InkAxis]

Are they also going to be changed in the back end? What I mean is that all base VP civs work very neatly with no lua or dummy buildings. However if we were to add these civs as-is then there are likely going to have dummy buildings and lua files which is a bit less clean. Of course on the other hand I'm not sure how much it matters. If that is changed for them to work in the DLL like the other civs then that might be more work for the devs to implement them.
Also there would be more work balancing and integrating these civs - not just actual balance but also AI balance.
Not to mention the upkeep of the mod is passed from the original developer to the devs of VP.
And Stalker0's point about memory is also an important thing.

Of course, it would be amazing to have these excellent mods in the base game. But seeing as installing and using them takes only around five extra clicks, I would want to know if this effort is worth it to save just a few clicks.

 

[Heinz_Guderian]

Only problem i have with adding more civs is that they don't have 3 and 4th uniques made for them, as far as I'm aware, so somebody would have to create some in order for the 2 mods to work together. if people are up to the extra work, then I'm all for adding more civs

If only the 4UC mastermind had created this thread...

 

[pineappledan]

Memory issues I assume are not too bad, or the idea wouldn’t have come up.
Most custom civs I have listed have 4UC compatibility already, so I don’t think that would be an issue
If packaged with base VP, that would of course also include DLL integration, yes.
And yeah, it’s not too much effort to just add custom civs you want to add. It’s a bit of a spotlight for VP to highlight mechanics or just highlight the mod community that exists
For now, consider the Khmer option as covering both mine and hokath’s

 

[Nightmare Dusk]

While it probably is supposed to be a total meme, Donald Trump's America UA sounds pretty solid, kind of want to use it myself. No chance of that being incorporated though XD

 

[Hinin]

I'm all for Timurids and Inuit, since I consider both add an interesting and brand new kind of playstyle.

Concerning Inuits, however, there are a lot of clunky elements that make playing them frustrating currently, I think :
- The fact that there is no tundra/snow bias currently coded means that the first settler is forcefully displaced near the poles, but without the usual starting luxury resources, and often in bizarre spots, either too far or just next to another civs capital.
- This makes you either rely too much on the luxury resource your UA spawns (but that part is also difficult to rate, since having fishes in the correct spot for you to convert them isn't reliable) or want to settle in warmer spots (which first is counterintuitive, and second often results in conflicts just to gain access to basic amenities).
- Also, the promotion that allows units to walk on ice tiles is clunky (in its current version). You can't go from ice to land (or the opposite) without first embarking on a water tile. This means that you use two turns (and put yourself in a vulnerable state by embarking) just to go from an ice tile to an adjacent land tile. That wasn't the case in the first versions of the mod, so I don't know if the change comes from the mod itself, or from how VP treats this kind of movement.

All of that said, the concept of the civ itself is very appealing I think, and doesn't overlap with over existing archetypes. Plus, it's a very polyvalent civ, once you're used to the bizarre circumstances surrounding your start.

 

[Kim Dong Un]

A spot must be reserved for "Kim Dynasty's DPRK for VP". It will be the only civ with a unique spin on Uranium.

Supreme Leader has had the plans laid out for a few months now, but time, health, motivation and lack of civ modding knowledge has sadly kept anything from coming to fruition so far. Some day...

 

[pineappledan]

My personal vote would be for Phoenicia and Timurids.

Geographically and historically, Timur fills a gap for more late warmongers who aren't European civs. Moreover, they are would be only the 3rd central Asian civ, but with a much later power spike than the Huns or the Mongols. They have a fun playstyle that focuses on razing as a core mechanic, which is different from other civs.

Phoenicia is special, because they are a civ that is focused on the rebellion mechanic. They are a OCC civ that can fill the gap left behind by Venice, but in a way that addresses why Venice never worked (couldn't occupy map space). now that Venice isn't an OCC anymore, we could shift Venice a little more towards being a “normal CiV” by simply removing the 3 city cap on their Merchant settling mechanic.

Phoenicia is also the only custom civ made just for VP. Furthermore it’s UU and UB depend on VP’s city-state diplomacy mod, so the civ could be bundled into CSD specifically as a sort of “tech demo civ”

 

[Drakle]

Could we get a full and updated list? Some aren't listed, and some are really out of date.

 

[JamesNinelives]

My vote is for Khmer and Vietnam! As an Australian I'd love to see more of my neighbours included and both of those have interesting culture and history IMO. Nubia, Zimbabwe, and Canada would also be cool.

Generally speaking having any 2 new civs would be pretty cool. My main concern would be that modded civs sometimes feel like they don't really fit with the rest of the game. Maybe if we narrow it down to a handful of options that would be easier to vet.

 

[Heinz_Guderian]

Vietnam feels like such a shoe-in. Bad ass warrior people if I ever saw one.

 

[Gizmoman]

Only problem i have with adding more civs is that they don't have 3 and 4th uniques made for them, as far as I'm aware, so somebody would have to create some in order for the 2 mods to work together. if people are up to the extra work, then I'm all for adding more civs

One could suggest that before a custom civ could even be considered for this it would have support for most other common mods like 3/4th UC and CommunityEvents.

Phoenicia is special, because they are a civ that is focused on the rebellion mechanic. They are a OCC civ that can fill the gap left behind by Venice, but in a way that addresses why Venice never worked (couldn't occupy map space). now that Venice isn't an OCC anymore, we could shift Venice a little more towards being a “normal CiV” by simply removing the 3 city cap on their Merchant settling mechanic.

Phoenicia is also the only custom civ made just for VP. Furthermore it’s UU and UB depend on VP’s city-state diplomacy mod, so the civ could be bundled into CSD specifically as a sort of “tech demo civ”

From what I've seen of Phoenicia, the AI have absolutely no clue what they're doing with it, which seems like a massive no-no to the current VP development ideals.

 

[pineappledan]

Inuit I certainly the winner. We need a tie breaker between Prussia and Timurids though.

straw poll for Prussia CS Timurids

 

[Kim Dong Un]

Inuit I certainly the winner. We need a tie breaker between Prussia and Timurids though.

straw poll for Prussia CS Timurids

Just throwing out there that I don't ever remember seeing the Inuit do well against me as an Ai, although I'll admit I don't have a large sample size. Maybe others have a different experience with them in their games (I do know they're great in human hands), but I've seen the Inuit failing to settle valid spots on multiple occasions across a handful of different games.

None of this behaviour recently though, because I stopped using them after those experiences, so I'll maybe throw them into my next game again and see if I can spot any of the aforementioned nonsense again.

 

[Hinin]

Just throwing out there that I don't ever remember seeing the Inuit do well against me as an Ai, although I'll admit I don't have a large sample size. Maybe others have a different experience with them in their games (I do know they're great in human hands), but I've seen the Inuit failing to settle valid spots on multiple occasions across a handful of different games.

None of this behaviour recently though, because I stopped using them after those experiences, so I'll maybe throw them into my next game again and see if I can spot any of the aforementioned nonsense again.

I think that the Inuit are victims of their own uniqueness in that case. It has made them popular enough to be first choice in the poll, but it's also unfortunately a source of numerous problems that will have to be fixed before a full integration :

• The fact that the AI generaly dislikes extreme biomes (tundra/desert, and even more snow) means that it will be confused by a starting bias making it spawn right next to the pole, and so make some weird settler movement in the early game.
  
• As I said before, there is currently no fully-fledged snow bias, meaning the starting units are forcibly moved next to the poles, but without luxury resources and with sometimes less than ideal placement (sometimes similar to polar CS, and sometimes in close proximity to other civ capitals)
• The ice promotion is so unique that it has its own set of challenges. Originally, the only units capable to go into ice tiles are endgame naval unit with the "crossing ice promotion", so having land units capable of walking there cause some weird interactions, most notably the fact that they have to embark/disembark to be able to go in and out of ice tile (so no direct ice to land tile movement) => At least it was like that the last few times I tested the civ.

At least, that's how I see things. What do you think about it pineappledan ?

 

[youngsteve]

The only one on that list that stands out is Timurids. The rest are either better represented by other civs or haven't added anything historically. Phoenicia a close second.

 

[pineappledan]

The rest are either better represented by other civs or haven't added anything historically. Phoenicia a close second.

The Tlingit are very unique, geographically, artistically, culturally, linguistically, and historically. I really wish I could have designed a more "fun" kit for them, because I think they are the single most 'deserving' culture, irrespective of actual gameplay concerns.