Advice needed getting a late antiquity wonder

[MutilationWave]

I wasted a long time trying to get Mausoleum of Theodoric with Mississippians on deity. The AI loves to build this one, and of course on deity they have triple my culture at minimum. I beelined for it, maximizing culture output, with the only exceptions being mysticism for a pantheon and the discipline mastery to build gate of all nations. It was still finished by a distant lands civ right before I finished researching the civic for it.

I'm not much of a wonder builder in general, especially in antiquity. Did I just get unlucky, do I need to skip piety and discipline mastery, or do I need to skip them and get lucky at the same time?

 

[Calcifer]

Mausoleum and terracotta are always super contested which makes me think the AI beelines the lower branch of the civic tree. I’d say you’ll have to beeline as well and hope to get lucky.

Discipline mastery I think can be done later because I’ve been beaten on Gate only once by the AI, looks like it’s a low priority.

 

[MutilationWave]

Mausoleum and terracotta are always super contested which makes me think the AI beelines the lower branch of the civic tree. I’d say you’ll have to beeline as well and hope to get lucky.

Discipline mastery I think can be done later because I’ve been beaten on Gate only once by the AI, looks like it’s a low priority.

Thanks for the encouragement. I'm going to give it another go because I really want to write up this guide. Mausoleum is necessary, as is playing Amina to guarantee Bugunda in modern which is not ideal. Maybe I need to war the culture leader with 20+ burning arrows. Even though it was a distant lands civ that got it in the last wasted hours of a game. Wish I played faster but I stop to think a lot.

If I end up not getting gate it's not the end of the world but I've built it in every game since my second game and I'd hate to play without it, especially with how many long dragged out wars I'll be doing to gather more pillage data.

 

[Taefin]

Thanks for the encouragement. I'm going to give it another go because I really want to write up this guide. Mausoleum is necessary, as is playing Amina to guarantee Bugunda in modern which is not ideal. Maybe I need to war the culture leader with 20+ burning arrows. Even though it was a distant lands civ that got it in the last wasted hours of a game. Wish I played faster but I stop to think a lot.

If I end up not getting gate it's not the end of the world but I've built it in every game since my second game and I'd hate to play without it, especially with how many long dragged out wars I'll be doing to gather more pillage data.

Perhaps the guide needs to point out that Mausoleum is not a consistently viable part of the strategy on deity.

I find that there are usually 1-2 AI with runaway science/culture leads. If the goal is to get Mausoleum, and if you are close to one, you can probably conquer them with 5-7 units and your free commander, early enough to interfere, without compromising your own culture yields. I’ve never tried Mississippian, but it seems like burning arrows would just melt the AI, on both the defensive and offensive stage of this conquest.

Alternatively, you could focus your conquest on capturing whichever city builds Mausoleum for you, assuming it’s in HL.

Settlements next to mountains/NWs, using uniques for more gold to convert cities, and rushing specialists could probably compete with non-runaway AI. Probably can’t get to amphitheaters in time for it to help, so just getting as many good monument locations as possible would be my goal.

Suzing a culture IP for the UI would be the second line of culture yields, and would be a good use of production after the monuments.

The culture on quarters pantheon could be helpful, and could be built as soon as it generated more culture than another UI, or just take all yields on altar if it’s already taken.

A recent post highlighted a discussion (mostly off these forums) that a 5-6 scout start yields a ton of science/culture.

No guarantees this is enough, but I’ve found myself the culture leader on deity, on games when no AI runs away.

 

[MutilationWave]

Amina and the Mississippians are terrible for culture, but unfortunately they're both part of the plan. I've lost the wonder twice more now. In the last game Cathy built it before terracotta army! Very frustrating. I should have just rerolled when I saw Catherine.

This part isn't for the guide anymore, as you pointed out that would just be cruel to suggest. It's for my fun of seeing 300% pillage yields now. You can do amazing things with pillaging and Bulgarian traditions at just 150% bonus.

Embarrassingly I hadn't thought of taking the wonder through conquest. I think I'm going to reload my last game and give it a go, my commander is level 4 and I have three warriors and 11 burning arrows. You really want about 20 arrows for critical mass, I've played Mississippians before and they are insane like that. Total glass cannons. So I'll build up and upgrade some of them to level 2 and attack. Thanks!

To actually get it built you couldn't even stop for mysticism. Straight beeline. So no altars either. The city state is a good idea, if you suze one ASAP you probably have roughly 10-15 turns left to get the Mausoleum built though. As far as the goody hut rush goes, 45 culture is nothing compared to what the civic to get the wonder costs. Every time I got a hut with culture option it shaved off one turn for me. I would think it's impossible on deity at this point but someone here said they pulled it off. Maybe with a culture leader and civ though. Maybe I've just been unlucky.

Anyway thanks again for reminding me to use my war focused civ to do a war.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Thanks for the encouragement. I'm going to give it another go because I really want to write up this guide. Mausoleum is necessary, as is playing Amina to guarantee Bugunda in modern which is not ideal. Maybe I need to war the culture leader with 20+ burning arrows. Even though it was a distant lands civ that got it in the last wasted hours of a game. Wish I played faster but I stop to think a lot.

If I end up not getting gate it's not the end of the world but I've built it in every game since my second game and I'd hate to play without it, especially with how many long dragged out wars I'll be doing to gather more pillage data.

I went much the same route after our last discussion of the Pillage Strategy.

Quickly found that with any Leader, to be sure of getting the Mausoleum required strict Beelining: Ignore anything and everything else, get straight to the Mausoleum or someone, somewhere will beat you to it every time.

And I found, as others have, that even leaving Altar and Mysticism for much later, I still could get a pretty good Pantheon even when all the other 7 Civs in the game had taken theirs already.

As for being sure of playing Buganda and Bulgaria:

Bulgaria is pretty easy: play as Persia, Greece, Augustus, Charlemagne or Catherine, or have 3 Altars. You can always slap down the last Altar at the end of the Age if you haven't needed them before, but I find 3 is almost always accomplished long before then.

Buganda requires you to play as Abbasids or Songhai or have 2 city centers next to lakes. Even on a Lakeless map, Abbasids are a pretty strong choice for Exploration and only require you to have 3 Camel resources in Antiquity, or play as Persia or Battuta.

I have found, generally, that if I start with a Progression in mind in Antiquity, I rarely have any problem playing whomever I've decided to play just by keeping the various progression requirements in mind while completing the previous Ages. Even off-the-wall progressions like Rome to Hawai'i or Greece to Majapahit are possible, they just take a little more work than the ol' tried and true Persia to Abbasid or Han to Ming.

 

[MutilationWave]

My most recent game had the Mausoleum built on turn 49. I'm going to take it from Cathy. I insist on playing Mississippians for the pillage theme and I've taken Amina to guarantee Bugunda. Sometimes there just aren't any lakes, and they're usually terrible places to settle. For instance I won't even put a quay in a lake for fear of my naval commander(s) spawning there on age transition. I think it's the hardest unlock, or perhaps the most luck-based. I really don't care for Amina but I'm not going to blow getting Bugunda over some stupid lakes, especially after restarting four times already.

I'm glad you were able to pull off building the Mausoleum on deity. Seriously that's a great achievement. I don't think it's in the cards for Amina with Mississippians though. I'm well on my way to having it now though. Helpfully Catherine declared surprise war on me from friendly status after I refused a deal. Finally some good luck!

EDIT- forgot to respond about Abbasids. I'm going Bulgaria for sure for the traditions, especially the half pillage as production in all cities. That's what I want to write about, and I want to see modern wonders be built in a single turn from two or three pillages at 300% bonus. I've already done it with 150% and it was nuts. I want to get it silly.

 

[evonannoredars]

Wrt Bulgaria into Buganda, I went with Charlemagne and Maurya for antiquity - although I mostly unlocked Buganda out of luck rather than deliberate planning.

Cavalry are great for pillaging with that movement, hence Charlemagne and Maurya. Pretty much was in a celebration all the time during Modern. Didn't get the Mausoleum in antiquity but Bulgaria + Buganda are overpowered enough as is.

 

[MutilationWave]

Yeah I went (can't remember) into bulgaria into Prussia and cleaned house. That was the run that got me talking about pillaging all the time.

Fighting Cathy isn't going great, she has all tier two units and multiple cities, I have two cities and tier one for another 20 turns. That shot at building the wonder crippled me. I'm gonna see how it plays out. Focus fire is keeping me alive right now.

Landships, tanks, and especially commanders with manuever are where pillaging really shines for me, because you can move and pillage or pillage and move. Any 4+ move unit really.

Mississippians are crazy with the burning arrow ability to pillage anywhere within two tiles for one movement. Too bad that's not a tradition, but it's totally broken as is, even attached to the weakest on defense military unit in the game that I'm aware of.