Advice on when and if I should switch from Se to CE

[madscientist]

I am playing Peter in BTS, Monarch/Huge big/little map/marathon speed. I have been running one of the best SE's I ever had, thanks to Caste system and getting the pyramids early. I have a mega capital in Moscow (one of OBSOLETE wonder Spam types) and churning all my GPs from this city. I have about 12 cities, and only built 4 cottages (2 in Moscow, 2 in St. Petersberg). Most cities have farms or other improvememnts/resources. I was also lucky in Moscow to have 3 gem sources from the beginning, but the otehr crappy city locations sort of offset that. I have settled every GP except for one shrine, an academy in Moscow, and starting a GA with teh Music free great artist.

I am currently teching Democracy, I have Biology. Currently at war with a backwards Sitting Bull but plan to end that and pursue a space race victory.

My question is, Should I start building cottages once I get democracy in order the switch to a CE for the end game or will I be able to milk the SE throughout the game taking advantage of the UB and 2 free scientists.

Advice from the SE and CE people are appreciated.

 

[DaveMcW]

I have a mega capital in Moscow (one of OBSOLETE wonder Spam types) and churning all my GPs from this city.

Leave Moscow as a GP farm (GP factory?), and cottage over the other cities.

 

[xanadux]

I think with a huge map, you will get to space quicker by cottaging appropriate cities. 2 riverside cottaged grassland only have to develop once to a hamlet to be roughly the same as a biology farm plus a scientist under representation (the specialist plus the farm is actually 7 beakers compared with 6 for two hamlets). But then the villages will be 5 commerce with printing press, and the towns will be 8 with free speech. You probably won't make many great people in other cities with a wonderspammed capital either. Once you switch to emancipation, the cottages will pretty quickly overtake specialists in output. Of course given even a slight tech lead at the end, production is never a problem for space race given enough workers to convert a couple cities to production. But I have found with several cottage spammed cities and a wonder spammed capital (which soon I would say should be converted to max production), Universal Sufferage gives your commerce cities enough production to easily build all your casing parts while the capital and another production city build the more expensive ones. With 5 or 6 well developed cities, even at the end researching the techs will usually be slower than building the parts.

 

[Indiansmoke]

I have found that with BTS it is easier and maybe more efficient to keep a hybrid economy until the end.

By hybrid i mean staying with representation and merchandilism+ statue of liberty until the end but also having cottages wherever you can and a lot in the city with Wall street.

The national park and the industrial park enhance greatly this aproach in my opinion.

 

[DarkFyre99]

Generally, you want to keep running a SE until Emancipation unhappiness becomes a problem. Then you make the switch. But to a hybrid economy, not a CE.

By hybrid, I mean staying with Representation, switching to Free Market when your first Corporation is founded, ideally a food corporation, and running one Merchant City (Wall Street), one Scientist City (Oxford University), one Spy City, and cottage the rest. The food Corporations allow you to run max-specialists, and still work quite a few cottages rather than farms.

 

[UncleJJ]

I am playing Peter in BTS, Monarch/Huge big/little map/marathon speed. I have been running one of the best SE's I ever had, thanks to Caste system and getting the pyramids early. I have a mega capital in Moscow (one of OBSOLETE wonder Spam types) and churning all my GPs from this city. I have about 12 cities, and only built 4 cottages (2 in Moscow, 2 in St. Petersberg). Most cities have farms or other improvememnts/resources. I was also lucky in Moscow to have 3 gem sources from the beginning, but the otehr crappy city locations sort of offset that. I have settled every GP except for one shrine, an academy in Moscow, and starting a GA with teh Music free great artist.

I am currently teching Democracy, I have Biology. Currently at war with a backwards Sitting Bull but plan to end that and pursue a space race victory.

My question is, Should I start building cottages once I get democracy in order the switch to a CE for the end game or will I be able to milk the SE throughout the game taking advantage of the UB and 2 free scientists.

Advice from the SE and CE people are appreciated.

An interesting question, but I think it is unlikely that it is better to switch to a CE given that you already have Biology and Peter is Philosophical. You need to look carefully at the GPP pools in each of your cities. I suspect that 3 or 4 will be able to produce a GP if you look after them. With a powerful capital it might take them a long time but with Biology and a free specialist from SoL (I assume you are ahead of the AIs and able to build it) they can probably do it, depending on the number of farms and the current size of their GPP pools (if you've been running a lot of specialists already).

Think of it this way. The 20th GP costs 3000 GPPs on normal speed (not sure on Marathon but probably 9000 ) but all times, beaker and GPP costs scale by a factor of 3 (IIRC) so I'll do the maths in normal units. The capital will produce most of those GPPs and most GPs but each of your best cities can probably be run to get to about 3000 GPPs over the next 100 turns (9000 in 300 on marathon). I guess 120 turns is about the time from Democracy before you could launch so I'll assume that here. Each specialist can generate 6 GPPs per turn = 600 in 100 turns. So simply calculate the number of specialists needed based on size of the GPP pool and number of farms. Add in an extra specialist for SoL although if you switch out of Mercantilism into SP or FM that might cancel. Also if you're going for a food corporation take account of how many extra specialists that will be worth.

I am not sure how many GPs you've produced so far but remember it will take a lot more to produce the later ones. For instance it takes a total of 5500 GPPs to produce the first 10 GPs but 26,500 to produce 20, so the last 10 GPs costs 21,000 or 4 times the amount of the first 10. Those other 3 or 4 cities can help the capital make the late game GPs effectively transferring their GPP pools into its pool. You need to take a long term perspective when producing large numbers of GPs, circa 20 in a game. One city just can't do it on its own. Remember Golden Ages or if you get Christo Redento a switch to Pacifism can help the other cities catch up on the capital as well.

Any of the 12 cities that can't produce a GP in the 100 turn (300 for you) should reduce their specialists by converting their farms to cottages (will only give 5 commerce as towns without FS) or watermills and workshops. As soon as one of the 3 or 4 chosen cities produces its GP then also convert that to low specialist high hammer output as well. Those cities will help in producing the low cost spaceship parts and can build military units or wealth at other times. Running SP can make these cities very productive (10% bonus) and cut maintenance costs and goes exceptionally well with Caste System (extra hammer) and in Golden Ages. Otherwise use spare GPs for lightbulbing (worth 2000 beakers on Normal) or trade mission (worth 2000 gold), I guess you'd get 3 times the beakers and gold.

You have only had one golden age so I would try to save 5 GPs for another 2 to help with research and producing the final parts. Hopefully you can pick up the GE if you research Fusion first so prioritise that. Plains cottages and watermills and workshops on riversides are great in Golden Ages. Other GPs could be used for a corporation or two depending on the resources the map has given you or you think you can trade for (remember the AIs ask high prices).

So without a proper examination of your game (hint, post a savegame ) I'd say stick with SE all the way and kick the cottaging habit .

 

[madscientist]

Thanks for the advice. A followup and another question

1) I am the tech leader, generating about 1500 beakers/turn using strictly a SE.
2) I Have Broadway, and teching radio so I can build the other 2 happiness wonders as well as the Eifel tower, all in Moscow. Should be easy as the production is rather large. That gives me 6 happiness with each broadcast tower, should be enough to offset the emancipation cap. Also seams like I will more of a problem with unhealthiness.
3) I am behind in railroad (probably combustion) and fascism. No one will trade so I am guessing I need to those nest before I find AI tanks on my doorstep (I need industrialization also).
4) I beelined supercondcutors and I am currently building research insititutes in all cities.
5) I have about 12 cities, with about 10 running +4 specialists or more.
6) I am holding one GS in case I have no aluminum.
7) I do not have enough of any resources to make any corp worthwhile. I will likely stay in state property (the extra food from workshops/watermills ar ehelping the SE) unless I have no aluminum and ness that corp (I do have Coal and oil).

So my question is which is best tech route to get rocketry for the Apollo without leaving myself open to an AI attack. I plan to have 2 major production cities for SS parts.

Artillery gives me great defense and seams quickest, and rocketry that fast gets me guided missles, SAM, and the anti-tank units. Flight offers alot of airsupport but I need combustion and aluminum (which means I need to tech industrialization), which means I will also have tanks. Or do I just solidy my defense first with a railroad/combustion/industrialization for tanks.

My goal for this game is to stay out of war, and Jaoa is defeinitely a threat.

I would live to post the saved game but since I play huge maps the file is we1200+ kB which I am not allowed to upload (can I get arround this). I will attach some screenshots tonight before I resume the game.

 

[madscientist]

Followup, I need to check the GP prodctions, I do not remember. I will be getting about 180 GPs/turn once the research academy in Moscow is built in about 2 turns.

 

[UncleJJ]

Followup, I need to check the GP prodctions, I do not remember. I will be getting about 180 GPs/turn once the research academy in Moscow is built in about 2 turns.

I'd forgotten about he Russian research academy... obviously build those in all cities with a chance of producing another GP. Did you get the SoL?

Since you can't post the savegame please give me the following information for each of say the top 6 cities. It is quite a lot of information but it is all needed to plan how to proceed... and besides it's interesting

The GPP pool and the current rate of GPP production. I need to know how many specialists they have now and if there is any surplus food. Also detail how many free specialists they have and any national or world wonders. And importantly how many farms, watermills and workshops they have. From that information we should be able to work out if and when they can make another GP in competition with the capital. It might even be possible to work out whether you shouyld change any workshops into farms or vice versa to speed up or slow down the GPP rates.

We can take account of building the Russian research academy (for free specialists) maybe the assembly plant for another and even the National Park (if you haven't already built it) and maybe switching to Pacifism (if the diplomatic situation allows). How many GPs have you produced so far and how many would you like before you send the spaceship aloft ?

 

[madscientist]

I'd forgotten about he Russian research academy... obviously build those in all cities with a chance of producing another GP. Did you get the SoL?

Since you can't post the savegame please give me the following information for each of say the top 6 cities. It is quite a lot of information but it is all needed to plan how to proceed... and besides it's interesting

The GPP pool and the current rate of GPP production. I need to know how many specialists they have now and if there is any surplus food. Also detail how many free specialists they have and any national or world wonders. And importantly how many farms, watermills and workshops they have. From that information we should be able to work out if and when they can make another GP in competition with the capital. It might even be possible to work out whether you shouyld change any workshops into farms or vice versa to speed up or slow down the GPP rates.

We can take account of building the Russian research academy (for free specialists) maybe the assembly plant for another and even the National Park (if you haven't already built it) and maybe switching to Pacifism (if the diplomatic situation allows). How many GPs have you produced so far and how many would you like before you send the spaceship aloft ?

OK, I'll post the info tonight, thanks!!!

I got the SOL in 27 turns thanks to Mocow's production (marathon speed). National wonder and oxford are in Moscow. Hermitage + Globe theater are in St. Petersburg. HE and Maoi s are in a crappy Novagrad (OK the third Russina city founded) which has turned out to be a very good Military production city.

I am not a pacifism person but willing to try it our once I get the CR wonder. I am number 2 on the power graph (mostly to persuade Jaoa to leave me alone) so I am sure my upkeep will be sizeable.

 

[UncleJJ]

I am not a pacifism person but willing to try it our once I get the CR wonder. I am number 2 on the power graph (mostly to persuade Jaoa to leave me alone) so I am sure my upkeep will be sizeable.

Ok supply the number of military units you have and plan to build. Pacifism costs zero basic upkeep but you have to pay a basic 1 per unit (after subtracting some free units). It can actually be cheaper to run Pacifism even with a fair sized army than running an expensive civic like Organised Religion. Even if it's more expensive getting another 2 GPs could make it worthwhile if that gives another Golden Age, which are presumably 24 turns long on Marathon

And if you have CR you can try it and see if you like it before committing to it at the end of turn

 

[madscientist]

Ok supply the number of military units you have and plan to build. Pacifism costs zero basic upkeep but you have to pay a basic 1 per unit (after subtracting some free units). It can actually be cheaper to run Pacifism even with a fair sized army than running an expensive civic like Organised Religion. Even if it's more expensive getting another 2 GPs could make it worthwhile if that gives another Golden Age, which are presumably 24 turns long on Marathon

And if you have CR you can try it and see if you like it before committing to it at the end of turn

I'll check the number of units, right now I am at FR but reverting back to my founded religion is not a problem (it will actually help diplomacy a bit).

GA on marathon lasts for 16 turns, 24 turns if I have the Mausaleum which is one of the few wonder I did not nab in time.

 

[madscientist]

OK, I am trying to post some decent screenshots of the land and some key cities. My nest GP arrives at 6600 GP which would be my 22nd earned GP (I got 2 free ones from Music and Econmics). I will be generating 177 GPs after building the research institute. Running pacifism wopuld save 19 gold, I have 108 troops and plan to keep building.

 

[Indiansmoke]

Just one observation about Moscow. It might be better to remove 2 merchants and work some food to grow the city a bit more.

 

[Airefuego]

Looking at the health, it's hard to see why growing the city would help...?

 

[vicawoo]

The two most annoying things about SE's to me is when you go conquer enemy cities, you want to whip the courthouse to reduce maintenance. But no, you're running caste system and you lose a turn to anarchy. Then you have to do it again a little later, then again.

And the second thing, it's late game, you have a lot of cities, you decide to switch from production to a science boost. You have to retask all your cities, then switch back when you want to war again.

 

[Percy]

If you're running Caste, you're better off using Workshops+Farms for production than whipping.

 

[Indiansmoke]

Looking at the health, it's hard to see why growing the city would help...?

It is better to grow even if some food is lost, but anyway there are plenty of AI's in this game, maybe get some health resource from another civ?

Also I noticed that you are running Universal surfage. Why? With all these specialists you should be running representation in my opinion, it will accelerate your teching big time.

 

[madscientist]

Well, I am progressing a bit more. I have all th radio wonder including CR and midway through the Apollo program. Running a pure SE still and can get through the tech tree easily with it (got genetics, teching Flight).

At this point, jaoa (with his FIVE colonies) declared war initiating WWII (Hannibal is #3 in power and had a defensive pact with me). Bribed Pacal into attacking jaoa from the north. Hammarabi (friendly) and Boudica (Pleased) are on the sidelines waitng for the highest bidder I think (neither will join the war yet). 2 AI turns and 1 of mine into the war when I had to save and go to work. I have tanks and Battleships to Jaoa's Cavalry although he has a much higher pwoergraph rating so we will see what happens. I lost Rostov in the first wave but reclaimed it and held it through the counter attack.

As you can see I a bit distracted from my worrying about my SE. The BTS AI definitely gives a better game at the end, Jaoa attacked knowing I was advancing on the Apollo misson even though I have oil and tanks.

 

[UncleJJ]

Well, I am progressing a bit more. I have all th radio wonder including CR and midway through the Apollo program. Running a pure SE still and can get through the tech tree easily with it (got genetics, teching Flight).

At this point, jaoa (with his FIVE colonies) declared war initiating WWII (Hannibal is #3 in power and had a defensive pact with me). Bribed Pacal into attacking jaoa from the north. Hammarabi (friendly) and Boudica (Pleased) are on the sidelines waitng for the highest bidder I think (neither will join the war yet). 2 AI turns and 1 of mine into the war when I had to save and go to work. I have tanks and Battleships to Jaoa's Cavalry although he has a much higher pwoergraph rating so we will see what happens. I lost Rostov in the first wave but reclaimed it and held it through the counter attack.

As you can see I a bit distracted from my worrying about my SE. The BTS AI definitely gives a better game at the end, Jaoa attacked knowing I was advancing on the Apollo misson even though I have oil and tanks.

Sounds an interesting war. Rostov was one of your GP cities but I guess it had already produced its next GP before Jaoa attacked as it was closest to popping one in 1692. I am interested in what happened to the GPP pool when you recaptured the city. Was it reset to zero or did it carry on from your previous total? The culture of a recaptured city is restored to its previous value and I wondered if GPP were treated the same way.

How many GPs have you made so far? You were aiming for a total of 6600 GPP in 1692, which would be the 16th GP. What did you do with your other cities not able to make a GP? Did you turn the farms into workshops and watermills? Now you have CR I guess you can draft infantry with theocracy in some of your cities. You could even run Vassalage and Theocracy for a turn or two, to whip and build normally and rush buy with US (all in the same turn ) a load of heavilly promoted units in all your cities. That should see Jaoa off.