AG8 - Let's try Sid

[anarres]

Since Portugal declared on us we got -30WWP from them. This means that they need to send many more units at us before we get any effects from them. (+30WWP = level 1 WW).

This WW has to be mostly from the Byzantines, especially losing units in our own territory. God knows where the rest is from.

Aggie - I haven't been able to play at all tonight (working until 7pm then out at dinner at a friends, which has been arranged for a looong time). I can play tomorrow (Tues) evening, but I am not sure I can do 5 turns in 1 night unless I play from the second I am in from work until the second I go to bed. I will try, but maybe it is better if I just hand over at the end of tomorrow, regardless of what I have achieved?

Greebley - I like the idea of sweeping over the Byzantines, but at Sid this simply isn't feasable. Every turn I am killing at least 6 to 10 Byzantine units, and they haven't stopped or slowed down yet. I do agree that we should push on until they are (almost?) gone, and there is no reason we can't do that before they get Rifles, which I don't think will be for 20 turns.

FWIW, the armies around Byzantine could never heal, since every turn they had to take out the units coming to reclaim it. Fortunately the slow units would go for the empty city instead of attacking and wearing down the army, but even against Spears the armies were slowing losing HP.

What I did (the strategic withdrawal from the Byzantine heartland) was in every way necessary to give us a chance of achieving our aims of taking out the Byzantines in the quickest manner. There was simply no way for our armies to carry on without any way of healing. Every city we took would be too much of a flip risk, and settlers were nowhere to be found.

Now, after 5 turns (not 10 ), we are able to start a sustained attack in the Byzantine lands. On Deity we would have stomped them qute a few turns ago, but on Sid the rate of Longbow production is scary, even if the AI is stoopid with the way they use them.

 

[Greebley]

I was thinking the method I started did have validity. So I put it to the test. The results were a broken Byzantine with 8 cities left dribbling a few units at us. The method does work (see picture) below

I ignored the Byzantine stacks for the most part, just let them run willy-nilly and bombard them when they entered our territory; attacking them when the odds were good.

Pros:
It can be a fast way to really damage an enemy civ.
We got to keep Constantanople and Leos (actually noone ever attacked it).

Cons:
Unit loss is higher - I lost one of our armies attacking a spear with 10 hp. I also lost some standard units, though not many as Byzantine lacked fast units.
WW is probably higher faster.
Not as well suited for SGs. The positions you hand over are chaotic.

Anyway, not much point to this post other than to reaffirm the "there are many ways to play". Note that I am not saying we should have played this way, but we could have played this way. One reason I am still playing this game is the multiple ways it can be played; all of them valid.

 

[anarres]

Where were your armies healing? I am at a loss at how you could walk through them like that...

Maybe it's the way armies seem never to be attacked in C3C?

 

[Aggie]

As long as you leave 10 HP's on a knight army it won't get attacked. If it's 7 HP's it should rest on a mountain and it won't be attacked. This is my experience in a couple of games with armies (like AG9). It's not a scientific solid proof fact though

 

[Greebley]

Armies heal in enemy territory 1/4 their hp [Edit: it may be 1 hp per unit in the army which usually the same thing] - so you don't have to retreat to heal.

Armies together can cover one another when one gets too injured and yes they are not attacked if you keep the hp > 7+ especially when the highest attack is only 4 (more hp needed if they were sword armies or enemie has cav).

They are very powerful in C3C.

 

[Aggie]

Especially when you take into account that the AI never builds armies. One of the biggest bugs of C3C imho But good for us now.

EDIT: Don't put an army in a city though. Then it WILL be attacked. I saw a warrior attack a MA army in AG3

 

[anarres]

Turn 5 (850AD) (continued...): Make peace with Portgal, who give us 100 gold. WW goes up as a result. []


AI: Byzantines sign peace deal with Sumeria. Rome lands another 3 units on our shores.


Turn 6 (860AD): Complete the Pentagon. [cool]

Here is the battlefront. Note that we have 2 large stacks, one on the settler and one in Nicomedia.

Found New Oil Springs where the settler is.

Take Dyrrachium with 3 armies and keep it. We can build in it's place with our own settler next turn.


AI: Wow. Rome keeps up the annoyance on our E coast with another 5 units. The Byzantines send another 6 or 7 longbows at us...


Turn 7 (870AD): Move units up and heal, while taking out the numerous slow Byzantine and Roman units.

I expect to take Heraclea and Nicaea next turn, the units are ready to move in.

 

[Aggie]

Should we draw in Sumeria again? We don't want them to recover!

 

[anarres]

I would say not. We have 6 or 7 turns left before our MA's run out, at which time we should see if we have done enough against the Byzantines to make peace for 20 turns. We can also make peace with Rome at that point, which is really what we should aim for IMO.

If the Byzantines are weak enough we can then build ready for Cavs and attack Sumeria as soon as we have them. I would strongly suggest not getting any more MA's against either the Byzantines or Rome, and pray that we can make it through. We do have several Knights in reserve on our border with Sumeria, I think it is worth the risk of them declaring against us.

 

[Nad]

I am more dubious.

7 turns seems an awfully long time to pray that one of the civs we are warring with does not sign in Sumeria as an ally.If Sumeria does turn on us it will not be pretty...

I'm not sure on the choice to make...if we think we can go all the way and defeat Byzantines now, then we can ally with Sumeria again, since the alliance will end by destroying Byzantium. Then again, I don't know how bad war weariness is or how strong we are against Byzantium right now.

Tough call, annares as the current player can make the most informed decision, so I'm happy to go with that decision.

 

[Aggie]

I trust that you keep this one alive when I'm away? Good luck and good skill to you all. I probably will miss one turn, but I expect to have enough fun with this one still

 

[anarres]

Hmm. Anyone but Sumeria declaring on us would probably be a good thing as we would get the WW bonus and not have to face much in the way of units.

Look on the other side: If we get Sumeria in an MA against the Byzantines, Rome can still screw us with an MA. I think the risk is worth it - think of the WW we are facing!

 

[Nad]

Have a nice holiday Aggie . We'll try not to mess it up too much in your absence .

 

[anarres]

yeah, enjoy and take lots of pics Aggie!

Regarding the MA situation - we either need to agree to do it now, or not at all. If the next person is going to get MA's it makes sense to get one now. We have 5 hours before I can play, so plenty of time to decide between us.

 

[Aggie]

Thank you both.

I'd say that when you don't get MA's then it is obvious that we won't do it at all. The issue I have with Sumeria at peace is that they can become stronger again. They were average to us 7 turns ago. It might even be better to turn our attention to Sumeria very soon and get the Byzantines to join?

 

[Greebley]

It is a tough call on the MA situation. I agree with going with whatever you decide is best. An MA after your turn wouldn't make sense anyway as we would only have a few turns to go on the war.

I feel an MA with Sumeria is equivalent to deciding we are going to destroy Byzantines utterly. We should only do this if the Byzantines have no cities off our continent.

I would like to avoid ruining our ability to make Alliances. Alliances may make a big difference when we want to assault the other continent (assuming we do this).

 

[anarres]

Turn 7 (870AD):

AI: Wow. Lots of Byzantine units this interturn! Still, nothing to worry about.


Turn 8 (880AD): Settle New Tonawanda and attack and take Nicaea.

Abandon Dyrrachium and settle New Mauch Chunk, then take Heraclea.



AI: Yet more units. The Byzantines send a horseman in this turn!


Turn 9 (890AD): Found New St. Regis and take Adrianapole.

Sell Incense and Saltpeter to the Inca for 430 gold, 10 gpt and WM.
Sell Silk and Dyes to Portugal for 20 gpt.


AI: Everyone starts buildign Shakespeare's.


Turn 10 (900AD): Nicaea flips, but with only 1 Musket in.

I take the capital (Naissus) and at last I get a leader! About time - I must have had over 25 elite wins in my turns.

Next is Constantinople, it is defended only by spears.

I take back Nicaea and since we don't need it for placement I raze it.


Summary:

- The Byzantines are weak now. I think that the waves of longbows is slowing, and as long as we are careful we shouldn't be in any danger.

- Rome every now and again lands either 3 or 6 units on our east coast - the units around there are doing fine at taking them out. The Roman boats off the coast have already all emptied, so don't freak when you see them.

- I have left 3 settlers and several units unmoved since it will depend on your immediate plans.

- I recommend keeping Adrianapole and Naissus until we can replace with our own cities in the area.

- We can make peace with Rome and the Byzantines in 3 turns, I strongly suggest we do that, and that we consider getting Metallurgy from the Byzantines as part of the peace.

- The Incas have Cavalry, so it is possible that once we get Metallurgy cheap we can also trade for Mil Trad straight away.

- All the other civs are Monarchy's groucho

The western front:

And the eastern front:

 

[anarres]

And the save:

AG8 SidSG 900AD

 

[Greebley]

Excellent progress Anarres. Regrouping our forces didn't slow us down any so it was a good call

We are only two techs from Cavalry. It would be really nice to get Cav before we attack Sumeria. We have a lot of cash and some peace deals coming up. Maybe we can take advantage of this and try to make deals in the peace making.

 

[anarres]

Yes, I looked at the end of my turn, although I can't remember the details I remember it wasn't quite perfect:

The Inca's don't have Metallurgy.
Portugal have Metallurgy and Mil Trad.
The Byzantines have Metallurgy and we can get it much cheaper in a peace deal from them.
(IIRC) Rome don't have Metallurgy.
Sumeria have Metallurgy, not seen any Cavs yet...