Age of Discovery PBEM
- Thread starter Phoenix_Fire91
- Start date
Eclipse4449
Deity
Yes not a good time period to be in front of a computer
Eclipse4449
Deity
Regarding muzbang last post regarding rules.
I hate to feel this way but sometimes it presents itself
These special exploits, manipulations and cheating should not be present or discussed, more over if these things are possible they should be done segregated from those that play the game as it should be played. There should be a separate section/thread for games of that kind and some kind of integrity bar attached to players caught doing such practices.
I do not want you to think I am singling you out because it really isn't my intention but realistically look at it this way, a unit is required to expend a movement point getting on a boat, if it does not it is spent upon unloading from that ship, thus loading/unloading from a ship that might take him to another and not spending a movement point is not an original design, and a city overlaping another cities territory is left with less area to work giving it to the neighboring town giving you only moderate positive only ontil the city grows beyond the available area. If there is a way to do it beyond this I do not know how it is done nor do I want to know because it was not Sid's plan.
Games that are played fairly are the only games I'm interested in and have no time to poise archers against Knights that weren't earned
I know you brought it up to bring it to our attention and that is good, I'd like to play and enjoy the game as "the Age of Discovery" not the age of dishonesty Hehe
I hate to feel this way but sometimes it presents itself
These special exploits, manipulations and cheating should not be present or discussed, more over if these things are possible they should be done segregated from those that play the game as it should be played. There should be a separate section/thread for games of that kind and some kind of integrity bar attached to players caught doing such practices.
I do not want you to think I am singling you out because it really isn't my intention but realistically look at it this way, a unit is required to expend a movement point getting on a boat, if it does not it is spent upon unloading from that ship, thus loading/unloading from a ship that might take him to another and not spending a movement point is not an original design, and a city overlaping another cities territory is left with less area to work giving it to the neighboring town giving you only moderate positive only ontil the city grows beyond the available area. If there is a way to do it beyond this I do not know how it is done nor do I want to know because it was not Sid's plan.
Games that are played fairly are the only games I'm interested in and have no time to poise archers against Knights that weren't earned
I know you brought it up to bring it to our attention and that is good, I'd like to play and enjoy the game as "the Age of Discovery" not the age of dishonesty Hehe
Eclipse4449
Deity
I'm sorry many of you get a copy of what was previously mention so I leave my last post intact.
I see you do not want these exploits and I agree with you
I see you do not want these exploits and I agree with you
TomBxx
Prince
No problems with me, I guess the moves won't start flowing until the New Year.
I'll be offline from 27-29 Dec.
On the rules thread - I'm ok with with your suggestions, I'd rather a fair and open game rather than exploiting loopholes. The only one I wasn't sure on was moving your capital to a colony. Are you saying, in the event of losing the European capital, we cannot chose a colony as the capital? If so I'm ok with that. However, presumably it's ok to create a capital in a colony by building a palace?
Eclipse4449
Deity
GPS to Defacto
muzbang
Prince
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2007
- Messages
- 319
When you loose capital, the game calculs what city will be the new capital (i dont give you the formula that is quite hard ... depending on the city's charasteristic and units in garnison)... but it can occurs that capital move to a colony in a such situation.
This is a situation that as happened in a pebm (a long time ago). the player wich loose his capital has taken a real advantage of having his capital in a colony, so that it was really easy for him to take back the treasures to capital.
In another way, this scenario is very particular.
The aim of this is to
- explore
- colonize
- exploit ressource and then score point.
War is not the main part of that game...
Moreover, as the starting position is very tigh, it could be quite easy to just spend time producing troop to invade all europe, without exploring, colonizing and exploiting ressource....
I don't think it's the sense of that game scenario, thats why i proposed to avoid war in the starting land.
I do not want to forbid war between europeans. war can take place at sea, or in the colonies.
But this rule must be validated by all (european) human players
PS : the rule can't be applied by the holland IA
So as i am the neighbor, i will have to keep troops on my metropolis 
And what if they attack me ???
I'm not here to give cheating idees... i just want to fix limits, so that every one can enjoy the game.
WAr in europe could be very negative for the game, and for the one that is attacked (and more over if it's by 2 opponent acting by surprise).
For the other rules; for the ressource, i understand that over-exploiting is NOT allowed
.For the bridge, too, not allowed.
I will respect the rules, and will hope every one will do so .
BTW, i think it can be checked by verifying 2 consecutive save to see. So keep in mind that if you cheat, it could be possible to proove this (for bridge, and for over-exploiting ressources)
Yes, you are right. Here are my thoughts on this topic:
- War in Europe -- Jump of Capital
A player could always "abandon" his capital and that way make it jump into the New World (after the necessary preparations). Therefore I think forbidding war in Europe won't help much to avoid this exploit. Also I think war in Europe must be allowed, because a) Conquest is an allowed Victory Condition, so playing for war is a valid strategy and b) the Netherlands are out of our control, so you will need to be prepared for homeland defense anyway. (And I think homeland defense is a necessary factor in this game.)
I would rather suggest the following rule: "No palace jump via abandoning the capital or rushing the palace with a Great Leader." If you hand-build the palace, that should be ok (because it takes ages in a totally corrupt town like the ones in the New World). And other people attacking your capital better think twice, before they send your capital into the New World...! So if someone chooses to play for Conquest, he will still have the option to do so, but he'll need to plan his wars carefully, like first conquering all colonies, before taking the capital, or at least having enough military close by the colonies, so that he can take the new capital as well, after it has jumped. - Resource Abuse
Agree. Sometimes settling close with overlap cannot be avoided, but at least the rule should be "One resource, one treasure-producing city improvement". - Naval Bridge ("Ship-Chain")
I don't think it will be an exploit in this scenario, because it will be extremely difficult or even impossible to setup anyway. (Long distance, too vulnerable to attack.) But if you want to forbid it, it's ok with me.
So I suggest, we just make a vote. Here is my vote:
War in Europe: allowed. But instead make a rule to forbid "voluntary palace jump"
Resource Abuse: forbidden
Ship-Chain: I abstain. Just decide what you feel best.
Best Regards, Lanzelot
Anyone interested can read the relevant articles here in the Civ3 War Academy. Basically there are three factors determining the new capital:
- Size of town
- Number of neighboring towns
- Number of units garrisoned in the town
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Have you ever played a "Succession Game"? Currently we are trying to decide whether setting up a new edition of the SGOTM series is worth the effort, as the number of participants has been declining. I participated in last year's SGOTM 14 and can confirm: it's a lot of fun, and especially PBEM players might enjoy it a lot. You play in a team of like 4-6 players, each one playing 10 turns and then passing on to the next in the roster. Strategy and tactics are discussed and decided by all team members. Each team usually consists of 1-2 world class players, a couple of experienced players and 1-2 beginners. This is a great opportunity to "peek over the shoulder of a master at work" and get first-hand insight into his thought-process and the reasons why he favors this or that decision.
If interested, check out these threads:
Future Civ3 SGOTMs
Ideas for SGOTM 15
Lanzelot
Have you ever played a "Succession Game"? Currently we are trying to decide whether setting up a new edition of the SGOTM series is worth the effort, as the number of participants has been declining. I participated in last year's SGOTM 14 and can confirm: it's a lot of fun, and especially PBEM players might enjoy it a lot. You play in a team of like 4-6 players, each one playing 10 turns and then passing on to the next in the roster. Strategy and tactics are discussed and decided by all team members. Each team usually consists of 1-2 world class players, a couple of experienced players and 1-2 beginners. This is a great opportunity to "peek over the shoulder of a master at work" and get first-hand insight into his thought-process and the reasons why he favors this or that decision.
If interested, check out these threads:
Future Civ3 SGOTMs
Ideas for SGOTM 15
Lanzelot
Eclipse4449
Deity
I believe you have it right
Secondly if the AI takes siege upon your great Castle in the East in your land,
I will lend hand to you with the units that I can.
This exploit of unique resources which I do not know of today
You must tell me this type so I may play with honor, not that way
My ships will soon set sail on that long journey west
to find new lands ,barbarians, friends and treasures are best
To heighten my career and favors unto thee
The battles in our homeland, I'll pray there'll not be.
Secondly if the AI takes siege upon your great Castle in the East in your land,
I will lend hand to you with the units that I can.
This exploit of unique resources which I do not know of today
You must tell me this type so I may play with honor, not that way
My ships will soon set sail on that long journey west
to find new lands ,barbarians, friends and treasures are best
To heighten my career and favors unto thee
The battles in our homeland, I'll pray there'll not be.
TomBxx
Prince
Here are my votes:
War in Europe: allow, however, the issue is what is stopping us leaving our capital undefended against the AI and thus get the capital jump? I will play with honour and not do this, but hard to enforce/judge.
Resource Abuse: forbidden
Ship-Chain: allow, in this scenario any such arrangement is vulnerable to attack
War in Europe: allow, however, the issue is what is stopping us leaving our capital undefended against the AI and thus get the capital jump? I will play with honour and not do this, but hard to enforce/judge.
Resource Abuse: forbidden
Ship-Chain: allow, in this scenario any such arrangement is vulnerable to attack
I think these good rules:
* Not allowed to exchange technology with AI.
* European cities can not be destroyed. Cities in America can be destroyed and taken.
* Catholic and Protestant monarchy can not start a Mutual Protection Pacts, Military Alliances or agreements Rigth of Passage. If this should happen, they are obliged to cancel.
* Not allowed to exchange technology with AI.
* European cities can not be destroyed. Cities in America can be destroyed and taken.
* Catholic and Protestant monarchy can not start a Mutual Protection Pacts, Military Alliances or agreements Rigth of Passage. If this should happen, they are obliged to cancel.
Hey,
the game will be holding Historic events or free-for-all? When I talk about historical exploration, I speak in Portugal to colonize the Brazil, England with the north america, or everyone has the right to conquer any land that may discover?
GPS to Lanzelot
Spain, this name will go down in world history as the pioneer of
colonization. For many years, we live in a small Europe, with a
population sharing the same ground. An overpopulation threatens
the borders of Europe. But now this story will gain a new direction.
A great man, Christopher Columbus offered his work to Spain to
discover a new route to India. May God bless him on this journey.
the game will be holding Historic events or free-for-all? When I talk about historical exploration, I speak in Portugal to colonize the Brazil, England with the north america, or everyone has the right to conquer any land that may discover?
GPS to Lanzelot
Spain, this name will go down in world history as the pioneer of
colonization. For many years, we live in a small Europe, with a
population sharing the same ground. An overpopulation threatens
the borders of Europe. But now this story will gain a new direction.
A great man, Christopher Columbus offered his work to Spain to
discover a new route to India. May God bless him on this journey.
Eclipse4449
Deity
TomBxx
Prince
I think better if everyone has the right to conquer any land they discover.
GPS to Tom.
I think, what muzbang meant with "Resource Exploitation" is the following: in this scenario there are certain city improvements, which produce a "treasure unit" every 5 turns, for example the "Trapper Camp". In order to build one, the city needs to have a resource in its city radius, e.g "Furs". Now, if you have discovered a Furs resource somewhere, it is possible to group up to 6 cities around it in such a way that the Furs resource is inside the city radius of all 6 cities, so all of them would technically be able to build a Trapper Camp, giving you 6 treasure units every 5 turns!
So let's summarize our current rules:
Three more suggestions/questions were raised:
Ok, back to the game...
A wise man in Tenochtitlan made the prophesy that time is fulfilled and the "White Gods" will soon return to their humble human children. The Aztecan people are watching the Great Waters to the East with joyous anticipation!
Lanzelot
I think, what muzbang meant with "Resource Exploitation" is the following: in this scenario there are certain city improvements, which produce a "treasure unit" every 5 turns, for example the "Trapper Camp". In order to build one, the city needs to have a resource in its city radius, e.g "Furs". Now, if you have discovered a Furs resource somewhere, it is possible to group up to 6 cities around it in such a way that the Furs resource is inside the city radius of all 6 cities, so all of them would technically be able to build a Trapper Camp, giving you 6 treasure units every 5 turns!
So let's summarize our current rules:
- War in Europe: muzbang and Eclipse are against it, Tom, Defacto and me would like to allow it. Defacto wants to add the extra rule that European cities are not allowed to be destroyed. I think that's a good idea. So let's say: if you want to, you are free to make war in Europe and take cities. Only razing/destroying cities is forbidden. (And of course anybody needs to think twice before he takes somebody else's Capital...) I think this makes the game more interesting and challenging: it's not only a "single-minded" strategy, but now you need to find a good balance between building colonies, bringing treasures home and defending your home base. In history it was the same: Spain once planned to invade England using a mighty "Armada" during that time period, and there where lots of wars going on between England and France and Spain and the Netherlands, iirc.
- Resource Exploitation: Everyone agrees on this one: Forbidden
- Ship Chain: Tom and muzbang want to allow, Eclipse is against it, Defacto and me don't care. So I guess its allowed. (In any case: I don't really think it's an exploit. GOTM and HoF competitions both allow it. And in fact: when you unload a ship inside a town, you can immediately move the unloaded units, and when you load units into a ship inside a town, you can move that ship and immediately land the units, if the ship reaches land at the end of its turn. So the act of loading/unloading does not take any movement points, and the same is true if two ships are in the same spot. Then it's just like loading/unloading inside a town.
Three more suggestions/questions were raised:
- Tech trading with AI: The AI is here to "help" us...
In fact I purposely set the difficulty level to Emperor, because in "Rise of Japan" the AI was only Regent and absolutely useless later-on because it's so backward... Trading (resources, maps, techs, ect) is an important aspect of the game and makes it more interesting. So I vote for it. (Also when I decided to play the Aztecs, I figured that getting some help from the Mayas and Incas was my only chance of getting out of my hopeless position... 
These meso-american techs are incredibly expensive, especially with only one town of size 3...!) All of you have contact with the Netherlands, so there won't be any advantage or disadvantage to anybody. Just trade when you can get a good deal. (This will also make the Netherlands "polite" and reduce the risk of an attack...) - Settling "historically" or not: Just do it like it used to be in those days: first come first serve...
- MPP, MA and RoP between Catholic and Protestant: I see no reason, why this should be forbidden? Religion almost never played a role in politics, except for being a good "pretense". Just a few examples: a) Catholic France made many secret treaties with the Muslim Ottoman Empire in order to attack the Catholic Habsburg Empire from two sides...
b) In the 30 Years War Catholic France and Protestant Sweden made an alliance against the German states. (In fact more than 60% of the German population was killed in that war by invading Swedish, French, Spanish, Italian and Russian troops, without any regard to their confession: Catholics killed Catholics, Protestants killed Protestants, and that war was supposed to be for religious reasons...!)
Ok, back to the game...
A wise man in Tenochtitlan made the prophesy that time is fulfilled and the "White Gods" will soon return to their humble human children. The Aztecan people are watching the Great Waters to the East with joyous anticipation!
Lanzelot
TomBxx
Prince
Nice summary, Lanzelot.
GPS to Muzang.
GPS to Muzang.
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