AI capitulating to a third party to end a losing war?

[SpankmyMetroid]

Hey all, playing the 5/10 build and having a grand old time as France (seriously the combat AI is incredible goddamn). I was pushing towards my neighbor's capital, Siam, and was maybe 4 or 5 turns from taking it (my siege units were all set up and I had top of the line melee units blocking reinforcements) when suddenly between my next turn, everything gets sucked out of his territory like a vacuum and awkwardly belched back into my nearest city (I ended up having a crossbowman die to a random CS caravel since he was forced to embark... insult to injury). Next turn I get a notification that he became a vassal of Korea, a neighbor and mutual friend (who also happens to have 7 defense pacts).

I get that it's historically relevant and probably a good idea to capitulate if you're about to get stomped, but is it working as intended that capitulating to a third party instantly ends the war? It seems unfair to a domination victory that the AI basically gets a free "panic button" if they're on the verge of losing cities; worst case scenario for them I DoW the master and they get to buy a decent number of turns getting reinforcements and healing up their cities. In this case, it'd be suicide to try to continue my war. It would make more sense if Korea would have to DoW me to intervene, which would have been more interesting than just abruptly stopping the fight, and it would have introduced some consequences for Korea to accept a vassal (DoWing a friend and allowing me to sidestep the defense bloc) which, normally, there are none.

For the record, it was sorta out of the blue. My warscore was only about 50 (I had only taken one of several cities on the march to the capital) and though he was in "total surrender" he wouldn't capitulate or even offer cities (total concession was about 5k, so a decent number of GPT, but I needed a holy city...) Korea (and most of my neighbors) have a higher military score than me, but Siam's is lower. I'd been in this war for about 40 or so turns on epic (war weariness was taking my happiness and I would have wanted to get a white peace after the first city, but he kept bribing other people to war with me... and as far as I know about the game mechanics weariness doesn't decrease unless you're completely at peace, so I decided to just go for his capital since I was "locked in" war anyway. Plus getting him to DoW me probably wouldn't work again, which was necessary since, he too, had about 5 defense pacts)

 

[Moi Magnus]

Is it working as intended ?
Technically yes, since the rule is "when you capitulate, you no longer exists diplomatically-wise, so you're war/peace value became equal to the war/peace value ot your master".
Morally, not really, but every choice has its own default.
I'm personnally OK with the current situation (and I've already used it in the other sens : capitulating to a friendly civ with a big army in order to prevent my neighbour to raze me), but I understand your criticize, and would be OK with any other rule, as long as the rule is clear and easy to understand.

 

[kawyua]

Ah yeah... I had to learn that lesson, too

I'm pretty sure what happens is that the "war leader" who has the highest war score, has priority in getting those deals. Its quite important to be that leader, but yeah... allies in wars are troublesome.

Oh, also note that it is war weariness to each specific war, so peacing out one would take out the penalty by their portion.

 

[Gazebo]

He didn't capitulate to the other Civ, he volunteered as a vassal because he was scared and weak.

G

 

[intelli]

How do you achieve this yourself though? I've had a DoF, been the score leader and thier war score with a rival was -100 but nope still impossible.

 

[Emufarmers]

He didn't capitulate to the other Civ, he volunteered as a vassal because he was scared and weak.

Should it really be possible to be peacefully vassalized when you're already at war?

 

[Gazebo]

Should it really be possible to be peacefully vassalized when you're already at war?

Why not?

 

[CrazyG]

Why not?

It seems really gimmicky. I'm about to take a capital, then all my forces are magically forced out of the borders?

 

[Gazebo]

It seems really gimmicky. I'm about to take a capital, then all my forces are magically forced out of the borders?

I mean, pledging fealty to a neighbor during war for protection is pretty shrewd. Gimmicky? No more or less than most of civ's simplistic abstraction of diplomacy or trade.

G

 

[CrazyG]

I mean, pledging fealty to a neighbor during war for protection is pretty shrewd. Gimmicky? No more or less than most of civ's simplistic abstraction of diplomacy or trade.

G

This just happened to me though. I'm conquering Maya, and they go to their neighbor Greece, and say hey I need some protection, I'll be your vassal. Greece shouldn't have the power to force me to make peace against my will when I'm winning a war. He try can protect Maya by trying to stop my Legions if he wants to, but why on Earth does Greece get to force me to make peace when I'm winning a war?

 

[Txurce]

This just happened to me though. I'm conquering Maya, and they go to their neighbor Greece, and say hey I need some protection, I'll be your vassal. Greece shouldn't have the power to force me to make peace against my will when I'm winning a war. He try can protect Maya by trying to stop my Legions if he wants to, but why on Earth does Greece get to force me to make peace when I'm winning a war?

Because they now control the Maya, including votes for World hegemony. You want a piece of the Maya, you deal with Greece. All you had to do is DoW them, and you could be back at war with the Maya soon enough.

Now, is the mechanism simplistic? Sure... but as Gazebo noted, no more than much of the rest of the game.

Side note: I've seen it happen even in peacetime.

EDIT: the ideal solution would be for 1) the Maya to become Greek vassals, then 2) the game offers you the choice of withdrawing or DoW'ing Greece. But I'm not sure that's possible.

 

[CrazyG]

Because they now control the Maya, including votes for World hegemony. You want a piece of the Maya, you deal with Greece. All you had to do is DoW them, and you could be back at war with the Maya soon enough.

Now, is the mechanism simplistic? Sure... but as Gazebo noted, no more than much of the rest of the game.

Side note: I've seen it happen even in peacetime.

Its not a simple as just re-declare war, my units get thrown out of Mayan territory. I have march through a bunch of jungle all over again and I lost my old warscore

It can be kept simple, just have Greece join the war. There is no reason the vassal agreement should teleport my army like that. I'm fine with having to deal with Greece, but he has to deal with me too. Greece doesn't get to force me to make peace

 

[Gazebo]

Its not a simple as just re-declare war, my units get thrown out of Mayan territory. I have march through a bunch of jungle all over again and I lost my old warscore

It can be kept simple, just have Greece join the war. There is no reason the vassal agreement should teleport my army like that. I'm fine with having to deal with Greece, but he has to deal with me too. Greece doesn't get to force me to make peace

Unfortunately the code stack isn't so easily defined. If you make a github request ill look at it though.

 

[Txurce]

Its not a simple as just re-declare war, my units get thrown out of Mayan territory. I have march through a bunch of jungle all over again and I lost my old warscore

It can be kept simple, just have Greece join the war. There is no reason the vassal agreement should teleport my army like that. I'm fine with having to deal with Greece, but he has to deal with me too. Greece doesn't get to force me to make peace

Look at it this way: the Mayans no longer exist as the entity with whom you were at war. Then what happens makes sense. And you theoretically having the option to declare war on Greece, withouth leaving Mayan lands, would be ideal.

But Greece deciding to join the war as you suggest in exchange for Mayan vassalage also makes sense.

 

[Emufarmers]

I mean, pledging fealty to a neighbor during war for protection is pretty shrewd. Gimmicky? No more or less than most of civ's simplistic abstraction of diplomacy or trade.

It's shrewd, but it would be even more shrewd to do it before the enemy forces were bearing down on their capital.

In EU4, a country has to be at peace to be vassalized non-militarily. I suppose that would open the door to some be-at-war-with-them-forever gimmicks, but war weariness should help address that.

 

[Dawnpromise]

Can't it simply be set that you cannot voluntary vassal while at war? That way the ONLY possible way to become a vassal while at war is capitulation.

 

[Gazebo]

Can't it simply be set that you cannot voluntary vassal while at war? That way the ONLY possible way to become a vassal while at war is capitulation.

Yeah that should be possible. Just remember that I didn't write the vassalage code (well, most of it anyways). Usually takes me a bit longer to decipher someone else's code.

G

 

[emdash]

Look at it this way: the Mayans no longer exist as the entity with whom you were at war. Then what happens makes sense. And you theoretically having the option to declare war on Greece, withouth leaving Mayan lands, would be ideal.

But Greece deciding to join the war as you suggest in exchange for Mayan vassalage also makes sense.

Should just be like, "Maya is now Greece's vassal, in order to continue this war, you will have to declare war on Greece as well, do you want to continue? yes/no."

 

[Txurce]

Should just be like, "Maya is now Greece's vassal, in order to continue this war, you will have to declare war on Greece as well, do you want to continue? yes/no."

That's one logical way to go, and it doesn't take away the AI stratagem. I don't know how easy it is to implement.

 

[CrazyG]

I actually like the idea where you cannot become a vassal voluntarily, unless at peace.

This avoids the situation where I want to make a civ my vassal via conquest, but instead they go to someone else part way through the war