AI China is... a bit too good on science.

[Logoncal]

So i started a game as England, 3000 BC start. All goes normal until i hear a message "A distant civilisation has circumnavigated the globe".... in 10th century.

Then, out of curiosity, i open the World Builder and see that China is researching Academia with all the medieval techs pretty much done.

That is not the only crazy thing i've seen happening relating to AI China. I've also seen them colonizing America 3 centuries before the Discovery Age (1450s-1600s)

 

[Tigranes]

Can you post Chinese America? I have seen Japanese cities there but never Chinese.

 

[LikeNothing]

There should be enough Barbarian pressure around the same time as fall of the Western Roman Empire
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uprising_of_the_Five_Barbarians

to collapse AI China more than 50% of the time.

In RFC: Dawn terms, RL China collapsed around that time. Its northern half became Barb cities and its southern half Indies. Then China respawned around 600AD:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sui_dynasty

This (timed, specific) respawn can conveniently use China's starting tech in the 600AD start.

 

[Leoreth]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but China does usually collapse by the early medieval period in most games? I coincidentally just ran five 3000 BC Arabia starts and China was collapsed in all of them.

 

[Tigranes]

Yes usually they get -10 for lost battles to barbarians.

 

[Temüjin VIII]

How does China fare in 600 AD scenarios, though?

 

[ngazi]

In Civ terms, Chinese culture and technology thrived between the Han and Tang dynasties.

 

[Logoncal]

The problem about a non collapsing China in the middle ages is that it makes certain goals impossible, such as Byzantium's 2nd UHV. You dont have enough time to catch up Luoyang or Xi'an's population.

Either those or Pataliputra or Indraprashta

 

[Logoncal]

Guys.... i dont even....

China capitulated Mongolia.

 

[catacau]

Are you playing in monarch or higher difficulty? In regent China usually collapse because of barbarians but in monarch they have a good early game and everything snowball from there.

 

[1SDANi]

After looking back on the Chinese UP and how it impacts gameplay, I have taken an interest in the balancing of said civ. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to fix said rampant science?

 

[Logoncal]

Are you playing in monarch or higher difficulty? In regent China usually collapse because of barbarians but in monarch they have a good early game and everything snowball from there.

Regent, cause i still suck balls on this mod.

 

[cmakk1012]

After looking back on the Chinese UP and how it impacts gameplay, I have taken an interest in the balancing of said civ. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to fix said rampant science?

I think China needs to collapse 90% of the time sometime in the first millennium AD instead of 50%. Also, instead of happening around the fall of the Roman Empire it could happen a little earlier to coincide with the fall of the Han Dynasty and the beginning of the Three Kingdoms, which I’d argue counts as a collapse to Indy states.

If China doesn’t collapse it can easily research Gunpowder by the 7th century (source: Carthage game I’m playing atm)

 

[1SDANi]

I think China needs to collapse 90% of the time sometime in the first millennium AD instead of 50%. Also, instead of happening around the fall of the Roman Empire it could happen a little earlier to coincide with the fall of the Han Dynasty and the beginning of the Three Kingdoms, which I’d argue counts as a collapse to Indy states.

If China doesn’t collapse it can easily research Gunpowder by the 7th century (source: Carthage game I’m playing atm)

Is human China just as bad?

 

[Logoncal]

Is human China just as bad?

Well, on the player end, yes. That is if (like me and the unexperienced), you proceed to build the 8 necessary cities for the UHV way too soon. Which by then you get fudged over real fast.

On the other hand, you can steamroll as China. I can kinda see why they're by far the most handicapped civ in the game.

 

[cmakk1012]

It’s just that if we’re going to railroad the collapse of Rome, the collapses of China and India should be railroaded as well. The constant regime changes, especially when it involved temporary fragmentation, can be represented just fine by collapses.

 

[Logoncal]

Also, India is another weird bunch. On 600AD start, it's completely filled with independent cities but 100% of the time on 3000BC start, both the Tamils and the Indo Aryans proceed all the way to the 1500s. Not even the Mughal uprising collapses India.

 

[cmakk1012]

I mean, should the 3000 BC start resemble the 600 AD start as closely as possible (excluding player-caused changes) once the game reaches 600 AD? That’s a major design question I’d be curious to explore

 

[Leoreth]

Not necessarily, if that was the case I think there is too little variance in the game. The later scenarios are there for people who want to avoid ahistorical variance so it would be wrong to prevent it in both cases.

 

[cmakk1012]

Not necessarily, if that was the case I think there is too little variance in the game. The later scenarios are there for people who want to avoid ahistorical variance so it would be wrong to prevent it in both cases.

I agree with this position, but there definitely need to at least be tech tweaks for 3000 BC games moving into the medieval era. In my Carthage game, at 700 AD China and India are hyperpowers (although ill admit China’s unstable) researching IIRC Renaissance era tech and I’m not far behind researching Gunpowder. I can upload my save later if that would help