AI did something smart--accident or not?

[AncientPlayer]

Had a very interesting experience with the AI while playing the Conquest Sengoku scenario—says something about how the AI works, tho’ I’m not all that sure I know just what it says.

The scene: middle of the game. I’m (Takeda) now in 1st place tho’ not by much. My neighbor to the east (Hojo) and I have been great friends the entire game. Early on, I joined an alliance with him against his neighbor to the south and again to repel an invasion of me by the Date to the north, we’ve traded maps, techs and have several trade routes between us. He lacks horses and I have extra but I’ve never offered them nor has he asked. I’m now massing my troops in the north to finish off the Date leaving some forces in the south to guard against (another) attack there but minimal troops along my (long) border with him.

The story: On the turn before I plan to attack the Date, the Hojo send two large stacks of units into my territory and declare war when I tell them to leave. It will be bloody but I can crush him by shifting my now massed northern army and roll him up north-to-south but I really don’t want to do that. Instead, I back up 2-3 turns and modify my play—this time I reinforce the units in my border city closest to his capitol creating a strike force just big enough to be a threat. This time my attack against the Date goes as planned--no stacks of Hojo units move into my territory and Hojo stay friends right up to the end.

Thoughts: So, it looks like the AI can tell that strike force is there and it acts as a deterrent. Now I liked the way that it turned out so, I’ve no complaint. But he shouldn’t have been able to see the forces along the border—of course, he could see that I was pulling units out and sending them north. In any case, I thought it very interesting that the AI would sense an opportunity and then back-stab me! In most games that particular feature of Civ3 annoys the heck out of me but in this scenario it makes perfect sense—the AI actually behaved in a way consistent with the scenario’s goals and with history for that matter.

 

[The Quirk]

I have had much the same experience in an epic game. While getting ready to smash the Persians to the south on a large continent, the Hittites jumped me from the north. We did have a RoP and I (foolishly) had left several interior cities undefended. The Hittites took out two with Riflemen and then sent the rest of their troops over the border. Since they burned the cities to the ground, I went back a few turns.

I moved Infantry into the undefended cities and put a large amount of Cavalry in a city a four squares back from the Hittite border as a rapid reaction force. Result: no war.

So why does the AI do this but totally disregards the 20 armor units I have next to his capital when I am suing for peace?

 

[Revolutionary]

that should be a lesson learned for you

NEVER LEAVE CITIES UNDEFENDED

the AI always KNOWS where your units are no matter where in the map, so if you leave a city undefended in the middle of your terrtory they will make a beeline for it.

so the AI isn't really smart in its tactics its just smart enough to know when to use an exploit

 

[Zandrew]

I've often noticed this too. You can back up a few turns, make a few changes, and drastically change history. I think it makes a difference if the AI can 'see' units going in and out of a city near the border. It might not know what units you're building there, but one thing computers are good at is counting. So if you reinforce a border town it'll keep track of how many are there.

 

[jidosh]

Backing up 2 or 3 turns is cheating. Learning to deal with your mistakes will make you a better player.
BTW, didn't you ever build a privateer and suddenly watch every frigate in the world from every country that has them, zero in on your single privateer?

 

[Zandrew]

Originally posted by jidosh
Backing up 2 or 3 turns is cheating. Learning to deal with your mistakes will make you a better player.

It depends on your definition of 'cheating' and why you play the game. I usually find it more fun to reload than to suffer. And I still learn a lot from my mistakes. If I have to reload a scene 2 or 3 times to get it right I learn enough from it to avoid reloading next time.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Originally posted by Zandrew
I think it makes a difference if the AI can 'see' units going in and out of a city near the border.

I'm fairly certain it doesn't. Since the AI knows the location of every unit on the map, it wouldn't make sense to programme it to be extra "scared" of units you ostentatiously move back and forth at the border.

I know for a fact it will be more scared of ten units two tiles from the border it can't see than of five next to the border it can see.

It might not know what units you're building there, but one thing computers are good at is counting. So if you reinforce a border town it'll keep track of how many are there.

It'll keep track of how many units you have in your capital surrounded by twenty tiles of your territory in all directions too.

Interesting question, btw - does the AI know what you're building? Anyone made any testing on this?

 

[sealman]

Originally posted by Zandrew


It depends on your definition of 'cheating' and why you play the game. I usually find it more fun to reload than to suffer. And I still learn a lot from my mistakes. If I have to reload a scene 2 or 3 times to get it right I learn enough from it to avoid reloading next time.

Your right and wrong. It is cheating since you are replaying a situation because you did not like the outcome. No doubt about it, it is a cheat. However, if doing this helps you enjoy the game than go for it. After all, it is a game that you play for fun.

In my latest game, the AI ROP raped me and tried to take a lightly defended city, he failed but it was a close call. Luckily for me, I was preparing to invade his home island in a few turns and had an huge invasion force with Armor, TOW Infanty and Artillery ready to cross the staits and land near his wines. It took me two turns to ferry my invasion force over with 10 transports once war was declared and a few more to totally ravage his homeland. In my eyes, the AI was not too smart in declaring war on me since it should have "known" this huge army was already amassed a mere 2 sea tiles away from his coast, with the transports available to make the crossing.

 

[AncientPlayer]

Backing up 2 or 3 turns is cheating. Learning to deal with your mistakes will make you a better player

You're welcome play any way you want and I'll do this same. If you think its cheating and that bothers you, then by all means don't do it.

In an SP game, the only person I can cheat is me and if I'm okay with it then it should be no one else's concern. And I'm a better player because I will occasionaly back up and replay a part of a game several times to see what happens--that way I learn some of the other possibilities so understand the game better. I get to see what would otherwise be "the road not taken" and you choose not to. In fact, this instance is a perfect example of how reloading a prior save can, in my opinion, be a good thing--I learned something about how the AI works, something I would never have seen so clearly otherwise.

 

[Zandrew]

I fully agree with AncientPlayer.

I wouldn't cheat against other humans, but if it's me against the computer: who cares but me?

 

[Revolutionary]

yes I also agree with AncientPlayer and Zandrew its JUST A GAME and by the way the AI cheats all the time .

ex.1 - by knowing where ALL your units are all the time.

ex.2 - by knowing where ALL the resources will appear later in the game.

ex.3 - by knowing where ALL unsettled land is in the map even if that specific AI controlled civ hasn't explored that area yet.

ex.4 - by not suffering from a bad rep. no matter how many deals its broken

etc... the list goes on

so play the game how you want and if you want to reload in an SP game then go ahead, its not like the poor AI is all that innocent and refusing to use there many many exploits against the human player.

so have fun and do what you want in the game, its nobody's bussiness but your own

 

[valamas]

Originally posted by The Quirk
I have had much the same experience in an epic game. While getting ready to smash the Persians to the south on a large continent, the Hittites jumped me from the north. We did have a RoP and I (foolishly) had left several interior cities undefended. The Hittites took out two with Riflemen and then sent the rest of their troops over the border. Since they burned the cities to the ground, I went back a few turns.

I moved Infantry into the undefended cities and put a large amount of Cavalry in a city a four squares back from the Hittite border as a rapid reaction force. Result: no war.

So why does the AI do this but totally disregards the 20 armor units I have next to his capital when I am suing for peace?

I turn on the preference to see units in my cities. So i know at a glance that i accidently woke and moved everyone out and fogot to leave defenders.

 

[AncientPlayer]

NEVER LEAVE CITIES UNDEFENDED

No city was ever left with less than 2 defenders, any city on any border typically had more. Nope that's not quite it--I left my cities defended but not nearly heavily enough to stop a big, concentrated attack which is exactly what he set up and aimed at the two cities closest to his capitol. When I replayed it I removed no units from those cities so each had 4-5 units as before but then added 4-5 more to the closest one to him. I figured he'd attack anyway and I'd use the extra units for active defense until the Northern Army could arrive. It was now unlikely that even his two big stacks could take both cities in one turn or even two. In three turns I could reinforce and a few after that my counterattack would be crippling for him.

In the replay time line the game continued with him my best buddy although was in 2nd place nearly the entire time. Its one of the few times I've seen the AI actually do something intelligent--attack me when it had a prayer of at least temporary success and be good friends when it didn't have any chance of success.

 

[ArielUK]

You can also use the AI's 'superior knowledge' to your own advantage.

In a recent game as the Babylonians, I had just finished fighting a war against the Koreans to the north when the Mongols to the east decided to get aggressive and launch an invasion.

Luckily, the fools decided to invade with a force of medieval infantry and archers, through a patch of forested terrain. I had two cities just the other side of the forest, and by adjusting the size of the two garrisons I kept the mongol army heading first for one and then the other (marching through the forest as they went) as they tried to attack the one that their 'intelligence reports' said was the most lightly defended.

In the meantime, my horsemen, ancient cavalry (gotta love that statue of Zeus) and Babylonian Bowmen were able to launch attacks against the Mongol hordes from either city (once they'd arrived from the Korean front), or from the road that ran through the plains to the west, and whittle them down to the point where they gave up, sued for peace, and went home...

...which was nice.

 

[Revolutionary]

Originally posted by AncientPlayer


No city was ever left with less than 2 defenders, any city on any border typically had more. Nope that's not quite it--I left my cities defended but not nearly heavily enough to stop a big, concentrated attack which is exactly what he set up and aimed at the two cities closest to his capitol. When I replayed it I removed no units from those cities so each had 4-5 units as before but then added 4-5 more to the closest one to him. I figured he'd attack anyway and I'd use the extra units for active defense until the Northern Army could arrive. It was now unlikely that even his two big stacks could take both cities in one turn or even two. In three turns I could reinforce and a few after that my counterattack would be crippling for him.

In the replay time line the game continued with him my best buddy although was in 2nd place nearly the entire time. Its one of the few times I've seen the AI actually do something intelligent--attack me when it had a prayer of at least temporary success and be good friends when it didn't have any chance of success.

no not you I was talking to The Quirk

 

[Revolutionary]

Originally posted by valamas


I turn on the preference to see units in my cities. So i know at a glance that i accidently woke and moved everyone out and fogot to leave defenders.

yes I also do the same or else I might not know if I accidently left a city weak or undefended

 

[kb2tvl]

That is one aspect to civ that I dislike as well and I laugh when the AI steals my plans... snicker like they do not all ready know where my units are...

 

[Hellpig]

Originally posted by jidosh
Backing up 2 or 3 turns is cheating. Learning to deal with your mistakes will make you a better player.

Now I don't mean to jump your opinion but ...

I may agree that backing up is indeed cheating, in a way. But then again, what should you call the fact that the AI knows about units that You would not know about if the sides were reversed? That's not AI that's cheating too, I'd say. Same thing goes with the barbarian huts, somehow the AI players allways knows about them - you can actually watch their units go straight for the huts.

 

[jidosh]

You're welcome play any way you want and I'll do this same. If you think its cheating and that bothers you, then by all means don't do it.

Hey, it don't bother me if other people want to cheat themselves. The AI has certain advantages to make up for what they lack in the strategic planning field. Since they can't plan for the future (unfortunately) they have to know everything instantaneously. IMHO.

 

[Admiral_Tarton]

Originally posted by jidosh
Backing up 2 or 3 turns is cheating. Learning to deal with your mistakes will make you a better player.
BTW, didn't you ever build a privateer and suddenly watch every frigate in the world from every country that has them, zero in on your single privateer?

Ah, yes once i saw France send a destroyer to the other side of the world to destroy one Privateer.