AI getting smarter at high difficulty levels?!

humbe said:
The AI isn't limited to be as good as the human player coding it..

You have techniques like for instance genetic programming which can be used by the AI to find strategies the coder which created it never thought of.

Is this within the context of a single game or over multiple games? Alternatively, are the strategies developed before the AI actually plays the game? In other words, how exactly does this work?

Also the AI has a lot of advantages over a human. It doesn't forget about stuff, it knows every game mechanic and can calculate odds for lots of scenarios way easier/faster than a human can.

True although the combat odds and advisor recommendations partially compensate for this in civ 4.

Noone ever said it was easy creating an AI, but it's boring to play with a heavily cheating AI, because it creates a lot of strange tactics, like when I played sid in civ 3:
snip

Don't misunderstand me, I agree that relying on cheating to make a challenge is poor game design. :) However, while certainly not perfect, I really feel that the civ 4 AI is not at all bad.
 
Just to add to that--

I am not sure how difficulty levels work in Civ4 (down to the details of how costs are modified, etc), but I do think it is very odd that people would accuse the AI of cheating on higher difficulty levels, but would not accuse themselves of cheating on lower difficulty levels (in the other Civs at least, and I assume Civ4 follows a similar model for difficulty levels)!

Sam

cleverhandle said:
I just don't understand the constant obsession with AI cheating on this board. Why is it such a problem that the AI cheats? ...
 
7th Circle said:
Is this within the context of a single game or over multiple games? Alternatively, are the strategies developed before the AI actually plays the game? In other words, how exactly does this work?
You can genetically alter probabilities to perform certain actions as an example.

This is the text idea behind it:

The AI decides to do A with the desired result of B. Once it is possible to measure whether or not the desired result occurred, the AI decides whether or not it was successful with achieving B.

From this point, the AI slightly modifies the probability to perform A based on whether it actually achieved B or not. (If successful, then A becomes slightly more likely to occur...modified by a SMALL RANDOM amount; if not successful, then A becomes slightly less likely to occur...modified by a SMALL RANDOM amount.)

An example would be this:

One game, the AI decides to be expansionist. It spreads as many cities as it can...but falls flat on its face due to money problems and the like that crop up, and loses the game--the ultimate unsuccessful "B". The next game, the AI is less likely to be expansionist, in order to attempt to win.

For a game as long as Civ4, though, small milestones should be used, in addition to whether or not the game is an AI win or AI loss. These milestones could be similar to:
1) If tech trading, does that AI reach the new age first?
2) If tech trading, does total production (or total science, or total food) of AI increase more rapidly, and compare more favorably to the production/science/food from other civs in 20 turns (or a random, but moderate-length, number of turns)?
3) If using great people for A, is there definite benefit after 20 turns? (Again, measures could be production, science, food, etc)

You get the idea, hopefully. Then there can also be game-wide probabilities...one that comes to mind is a balance between how much the AI should focus on food, science, and production (which are often a trade-off, though not always of course). These game-wide probabilities get modified based on whether or not there was a win or a loss.

Let me illustrate a bit more. Say there was a probability of 1/8 to focus on food, 3/8 to focus on science, and 1/2 to focus on production. The AI then chooses a short-term goal...say for instance #3 above, since a Great Person was just produced. In order to use that goal, it needs to decide whether to focus on food, science, or production, so it generates a random number (say, 0.451), and maps that to science (0 - 0.124 = food, 0.125 - 0.499 = science, and 0.500 - 0.999 = production, using the probabilities above). At this point, the AI notes what its current science rate is, relative to the others involved in the game. Say for instance, the AI's science rate is 0.924 of the leader's science rate.

The AI then decides what action to do (ie, how to use the Great Person), and performs that action (this could be done the same turn or after several turns, depending on the action to be performed). It keeps track of what result was used, and what probability(ies) were used to determine that result, and whether to modify them up or down if successful.

After the action is performed, the AI waits 20 turns, then measures the new science rate relative to the other players. Say for example the AI's new science rate is 0.921 of the leader's science rate in the game. This would be considered a minor failure of the action, so all probabilities would very slightly get altered for failure (ie, altered the opposite way as if they were successful). The amount of alteration SHOULD include a random component, but should also take into account the degree of failure (in this case, it is very slight). In other words, had the AI's rate fallen to 0.621 of the leader's, the probabilities would have been altered by a still minor, though more noticeable, amount.

Of course these are only primitive examples, but I want to illustrate the point clearly. The probabilities could be functions that vary based on how much is being produced and the map conditions, or based on turn number, instead of set numbers--then numerical methods for least squares could be used to find an approximate function for the new altered probabilities. There are also techniques for "mating" successful AIs in addition to this "mutating" idea of slightly modifying probabilities based on a measure of success or failure. In this way, the AI gets smarter than its programmer, and adapts to your strategies as well.

That's what happens when you ask a physics/computer science geek how something works...I hope I kept it understandable to the general public...and especially to Firaxis!

Sam
 
Seb74 said:
Comments like this one are just stupid.
You know why?

I'll tell you. This means that you, yes YOU, can pay 10$ to go see a movie that really sucks. I mean really really sucks. You complain to your friends how bad it was.
You know what they might say?
Yeah, thats right, they might give you your own medicine, "if you think it was so bad, go buy cameraequippment and direct a better movie yourself".

We could of course take even more extreme examples, like buying a graphics card that is really bad, overheats and has stability issues. No no, if you cant design and manufacture your own gfx-card you shouldn't complain.

Please stop these stupid arguments that regular people that dont work as gameprogrammers and dont get paid for it should make a better game themselves.

No offense to anyone, just my opinion. I dont have a clue how hard it is to make real noncheating AI for a Civ-type of game that still is challenging.
Maybe if they had put all power on AI and game-design instead of going 3d it would have been a bit better...

Nice way of throwing his argument back in his face :goodjob: I too want an AI that is SMARTER and doesnt cheat. The argument that giving cheats to the AI is what makes it smarter is like giving the class idiot all the answers to a test and having him get a perfect grade and saying he is smarter. :crazyeye:
 
7th Circle said:
You're missing his/her main point.

The issue is that (some) people have no appreciation of how good the civ 4 AI programming actually is.


but that is probably because people have seen no improvement in the AI since almost the beginning. its a joke to think that most supporters of this game are looking for better graphics or sound.
 
You do realize that if the programmers had made the world's most advanced AI for this game, that it wouldn't have been released until 2010 at the earliest, and no one's home computer would be able to run it, right?

By no means is the Civ IV AI brilliant, but it has certainly pulled some surprises on me. The first time they declared war and immediately offloaded a galleon or two of troops on my shore, my first reaction was "You sneaky b*st*rd!"

I do think that one thing that would help the AI immensely would be to have programmed strategies that the computer can attempt to follow at certain times that mimic what a real human would do. For instance, when I go to war with the computer, I have a specific goal in mind: to acquire a resource, to take a city for some reason, to capture a wonder, or whatever... As it stands, the computer only seems to go to war when it sees that you're poorly defended... but say, if I do a culture bomb and steal half his resources in one town, he won't get angry and go to war.

And along that vein, it would be nice to see the computer actually follow some rhyme or reason with its tactics in battle. In all of my games, the computer usually launches an initial offensive, and once that peters out, it tends to sit there not knowing what to do. I've seen the computer pillage, but not intelligently (instead of pillaging the town for gold, why don't you pillage the iron mine 5 squares away and cut off my iron access?). I've seen the computer lay siege to a city but not do anything to cut off my ability to reinforce that town. I've seen the computer split its forces into one or two units to attack targets of opportunity rather than keeping them grouped for protection. I've never seen the computer designate "reserve" units that stay back from battle and jump in when things go poorly. I don't think any of these would be too terribly difficult to program and would help the AI immensely to keep up with a human in war. The strength of a human is to develop ideas on the fly, to adapt, to surprise and be unpredictable. While we're not anywhere near having that ability with AI yet, we can at least try to mimic typical human strategies.
 
Sorceresss said:
Artanis : "The fact is that the Civ4 is one of the best game AIs I've ever seen. Is it stupid by human standards? Yes, it is. Hell, by human standards, I'd go so far as to say that the AI in this game is downright moronic."

1. Civ 4's A.I. was designed & coded by very smart software engineers : so it should not be "stupid" and "moronic", even "by human standards" (since it was programmed by humans with above average IQs).

2. Also, your argument could imply that if we took a scientific sample of the whole population (let's say, for the sake of argument, of those who are of age 16 to 59), a big majority of those humans could beat Civ 4's A.I. most of the time. This forum's membership does not represent a scientific sample of the whole population : the fact that many forum posters can easily beat your "moronic" A.I. does not imply that as many non-civfanatics could do it.

3. You seem to confuse two different issues : the evaluation of the complex smartness of a game's code (as designed & programmed by...humans) and the more general comparaison between Artificial Intelligence and Neurological Intelligence (the latter issue not being the topic of this thread).
My apologies, I stand corrected.
 
Garand said:
You do realize that if the programmers had made the world's most advanced AI for this game, that it wouldn't have been released until 2010 at the earliest, and no one's home computer would be able to run it, right?

Of course, but you're missing the OP's point: in the description it seems as if Monarch AI is better than Prince AI. If that is true it is a serious flaw in the game: smarter AI should always precede bonuses as you go upwards in level.
 
Garand said:
By no means is the Civ IV AI brilliant, but it has certainly pulled some surprises on me. The first time they declared war and immediately offloaded a galleon or two of troops on my shore, my first reaction was "You sneaky b*st*rd!"
Strange. In every Civ-type game I've played that this happens in (and it happens in every game, every play), my first, only, and extremely loud thought is "GET OFF MY LAND, JACK***!!!" Doesn't matter if it's a dozen swordsmen, a lone scout, a peaceful diplomat, or some settlers. I will go postal, right then, right there, and obliterate the invaders. Generally I'd prefer to end it there. Sometimes the AI is willing (or just makes threats and does nothing further). If it is not, I just Jihad until they get the picture.

Why do I respond so severely? Because it's the only valid one. I am isolationist to the extreme. If I'm left alone, I'm happy to leave others alone. But the moment some AI comes to my territory, I am under attack. One settler will camp on my land and crank out endless military for them to attack me. One diplomat will rob me blind and throw open the gates for all forms of diplomatic posturing. One soldier will pillage and destroy everything I create. It doesn't matter what 'personality' the AI has or what game it is, they all play that way. One unit, 50 units, it's all the same.

And it's all because of how the AI works. An extremely dumb creature with cheats up to it's diodes. They'll throw catapaults at me and wonder why my tanks keep winning. They'll buy a hundred tanks of their own all in a single turn and then bog down in a chokepoint and be obliterated by artillery. They'll claim I'm vile and evil and that I should be wiped from the face of the planet, even though I haven't taken a single step towards their cities (and how could I? I'd have to climb the mountain of corpses on my front lawn first!) . Even when the AI wins, it's so obvious that it's doing so very inefficiently, giving me more than enough time to slip settlers out the back way if I so chose (I never bother. What's the point of a running retreat that never ends?).

Games of Civilization's type and scope are infamous for their AI cheats, earned with years of moronic AIs. Frankly, I have extreme doubts that any new AI has been built for any civ-type game in the last 10 years. They just dust off a previous one and plug it in.
 
It took a supercomputer backed by an entire team of IBM engineers working for a decade to beat Gary Kasparov at chess.

Chess is a very simple game involving nothing more than an 8 x 8 board and 32 pieces with a very tightly defined set of moves. It is ideally suited to mathematical analysis and calculation, presumably the strongpoint of a computer. Kasparov still had to wait long periods between moves for the computer to finish its calculations, and he still won the first game of out three.

And what some of you are asking is for an AI to make good decisions in a game that is infinitely more complex, on a computer with one-thousandth the processing power, in the 10-20 seconds you are willing to wait between turns.

Riiiiiight.

We are probably still a decade away from an AI on a standard computer that could reliably beat even a really good Civ player, nevermind a great one, without cheating.
 
Fine. Then the devs shouldn't mind one bit when I take one page out of the manual and shove it down their lying throats.

Artificial Intelligence Penalties
The difficulty level affects how quickly the AI civilizations develop and expand. On the lowest difficulty levels, it takes the AI civs longer to train units, construct buildings and wonders, grow their cities and research technologies. On Noble difficulty they play under the same conditions as the human players, and on higher difficulties they receive discounts on these items.

Page 167. Look it up.

Anyone want to even bother to claim it isn't a bald-faced, in-print LIE?
 
Zorlond said:
Fine. Then the devs shouldn't mind one bit when I take one page out of the manual and shove it down their lying throats.



Page 167. Look it up.

Anyone want to even bother to claim it isn't a bald-faced, in-print LIE?

Why is that a lie?

On Noble, the AI plays with the same construction and research costs as a human and starts the game with the same units and bonuses to barbarians.

Which is exactly what that sentence conveys to me.

What exactly are you reading into that sentence that makes it feel untrue to you?

The 'conditions' they talk about are defined right there in the previous sentence.
 
The part where it's a 1 vs all-AI game. Declared or not, they will all fuction as permanent allies.

The part where an AI can make any unit instantly, even if they lack any means to do so.

The part where the AI's units get favorable results from combat under ludicrous factors far too frequently (the infamous spearmen vs tank battle).

The part where the AI's empire will -still- operate with greater speed in all categories regardless of all other factors

Do you guys even pay attention when you're playing?
 
Zorlond said:
The part where it's a 1 vs all-AI game. Declared or not, they will all fuction as permanent allies.

The part where an AI can make any unit instantly, even if they lack any means to do so.

The part where the AI's units get favorable results from combat under ludicrous factors far too frequently (the infamous spearmen vs tank battle).

The part where the AI's empire will -still- operate with greater speed in all categories regardless of all other factors

Do you guys even pay attention when you're playing?

1. The AI's in my games frequently fight with each other. I think they've done a good job making the AI try to win at all costs, not just make sure YOU don't win at all costs.

2. Uh, it's called drafting....you can do it too, with the right civics. I don't really know what else you mean by this...

3. This has been discussed to DEATH. Combat modifiers make things like spearmen beating tanks happen from time to time. Is it ideal? NO, however, the units are simply graphical representations of number values. That's all.

4. I haven't seen this happen...are you irritated because the AI is beating you? Turn down the difficulty for a while, learn to play, then turn it back up- that's what I did!

Yes, I pay attention when I'm playing. I don't care for the condescending tone, but I'm not going to call you a name or insult you in some other way, but I believe that the AI plays with no advantage on noble, besides the advantage that the computer checks ALL of the information available to it on EVERY turn. A human might not be as dilligent.
 
Zorlond said:
The part where it's a 1 vs all-AI game. Declared or not, they will all fuction as permanent allies.
Prove it.

Zorlond said:
The part where an AI can make any unit instantly, even if they lack any means to do so.
So can you. It's called "rushing" and "drafting".

Zorlond said:
The part where the AI's units get favorable results from combat under ludicrous factors far too frequently (the infamous spearmen vs tank battle).
Prove it. (edit: prove the "far too frequently" part. and not in your opinion, prove that it consistently violates the stated combat resolution system)

Zorlond said:
The part where the AI's empire will -still- operate with greater speed in all categories regardless of all other factors
It's right there in the manual text: the AI gets stuff cheaper. It outright TELLS you that, so how is it a lie?
 
Feel free to base your claims with facts. Please note that anecdotes hardly count as facts - everyone has anecdotal evidence of every single imaginable claim, so it isn't worth much. If you want to convince people, post a savegame that clearly proves your claim.

Apart from the free units (which can easily be proven, but which are limited to warriors during the very first turns) I haven't found any cheats yet.

There *are* variables which are different for the AI even on noble, these are clearly laid out in the XML, yet you don't even mention those. Hmm, how do I know this? Could it be that I have been paying attention?
 
1. But noticed how they hardly ever manage to do significant damage? The few civs that actually do drop dead do so with amazing simplicity, and are rapidly absorbed into the conquoring civ.

2. I said without any means.

3. Numbers still answer to probability.

4. That's pure flame-bait and you know it.

As for my tone, it's from over a decade of dealing with the same AI in dozens of games from as many companies. I'm sick to death of it.
 
I still don't see any proof. Come on, if it's so easy to spot that we only have to pay a little attention to see it, you surely can come up with a couple of savegames that prove your claims?
 
Because it's not something that is prooved with 'a couple of savegames'. It's only proven by entire plays, start to finish.
 
Back
Top Bottom