AI not trying to avoid loss?

[Ranos]

Okay so we all know one of the big changes to Civ 5 is that the AI is actually trying to win now. This is the reason for backstabs and other such tactics. This is both great and annoying since the AI is more competative (leaving its pathetic 1UPT tactics aside) but also a bit less predictable.

I'm curious about why the AI doesn't try to avoid losing. What I mean by that is when the human player is close to winning, why doesn't the AI try and stop them? Now maybe it does this more on higher levels but I would have thought it would do it on lower levels too. Here's why I bring this up:

The game I just finished was King, Large, Continents, 11 civs, 20 CS, all vic conditions on. It was my first time in any civ game trying the OCC. I picked Ramses with the intention of going for a cultural vic.

I got a decent start with marble available, not coastal, a couple of hills and a bunch of forests around me.

Due to all of my bonuses, I was able to get a massive portion of the wonders and through most of the medieval and renaissance eras, I was ahead in score. It wasn't until the end of the renaiassance that a couple of the AIs got the tech lead on me and started to run away with some conquering.

I repelled a couple of attempts by Alex to conquer me and Suleiman just wouldn't give up until he was being crushed by Alex.

By the time I had completed my fourth policy, Alex (who bordered me on two sides with multiple cities and one side with a single city) and Wu (who was on another continent) were ahead of me in tech and had armies that could have crushed me. Darius (also on my continent and bordering me on another side with two cities) and Kathy (on continent with Wu) had armies that were larger than mine. The other civs I could have repelled.

All civs left in the game were Friendly with me (Suleiman was the ony one who didn't like me and that's only because I denounced him a couple of times) and I had trade relations of some kind off and on with all of them (OB with all of them, with some RAs and me selling my luxuries plus a few luxury trades or purchases to maintain WLTK in Thebes). There had been a couple of disagreements over CSs but no grudges.

So I have about a dozen units for defensive purposes in fortified locations in case Alex or somebody else tried to wipe me out before I could complete the last tree or the Utopia project. But alas, it never happened. I completed the final tree and built the Utopia project without a single DoW. Alex moved a couple of tanks to my borders a couple of times but never massed a large number of troops.

For the record, this is my third cultural vic (1 Prince, 2 King) plus I've also had a diplo (Warlord or whatever is before prince) and a science (King) vic. In all of those, the AI never tried to stop me. Didn't attack me when close to finishing required buildings and didn't try to steal CSs from me. I also have a couple of domination vics but not counting those since the AI couldn't stop me if it wanted to.

So its great that the AI tries to win now but it would be nice if it would actually try to keep me from winning. Attack me, attack CSs just do something to try and stop me from winning!

 

[Bezurn]

The Ai will 'try' to win, but due to the limitations of AI the thought process of achieving the win usually fails. I've actually lost a few games on Emperor. The AI needs enough bonuses to counteract the lack of tactical play in the combat portion of the game, which it throws thousands of hammers away due to poor unit management.

The game still uses the flavor systems too, so it role plays to an extent while emulating the appearance of caring about winning as well. Typically the AI doesn't care if you are attempting a different means of winning besides the one it is trying to achieve (besides warmongering of course).

 

[The Pilgrim]

Go higher. On immortal-deity it will attack. Maybe on king you're not pathetic enough from AI's perspective. I've been DoWed ten or so turns before launching the spaceship. Kind of a nice thrill. Unfortunately no units were sent, so I've lost interest and kept pressing next turn. But that's different issue.

 

[headcase]

I had a pretty good game to sum up the problems brought up by the OP.

In this game, Egypt had so much money and technology that a UN victory would be no problem, but they decided not to go that way. Both India and myself got the Apollo Program on the same turn. Now, India saw that my literacy was better than them, so they went to war with me instead. Scratch that; probably over completely random diplo relations that had nothing to do with the space victory, they went to war with me instead. Meanwhile, Egypt deferred the UN Victory. While Ghandi was nuking my cities, Egypt completed the Apollo Program. This despite two civs being ahead in the space race and this despite the UN victory being a very obvious route as they already had 5 votes more than they needed.

The root problem is this; AI should be better at seeing opportunities at victory. If it could do so effectively, it could be competitive in the middling difficulties with far less bonuses than they get.

 

[crossmr]

Even on prince I'm attacked a lot. The problem is they can't do anything. On prince, I just had monty attack me, like 10+ units he brought in. The problem was he tried to bring them across rivers and marshes. My 2 archers, and upgraded spearguys made mincemeat of them.

He almost killed one spearguy but at the end of his turn, I had 2 HP left on him, pulled him back picked off another couple units, and started to flea. Through the forest. So I caught him to him the next turn and finished him off. All the while he's telling me "Give me everything you have and we can have peace!"

I think the problem with forcing the AI to win certain ways would piss of the player. Since the AI gets random bonuses and cheats sometimes money and stuff isn't a fair problem for them. So if they suddenly ninja'd a diplomatic victory before you got your space race, it would feel extremely cheap.

What I'd like to see is some of the players who are farther beyond form an alliance and start attacking people together if they got too far ahead to bring them back down. 1-2 AIs attacking me at once I can handle. But if 3-4 got together there is a chance I might get spread too thin.

 

[Ranos]

I think the problem with forcing the AI to win certain ways would piss of the player. Since the AI gets random bonuses and cheats sometimes money and stuff isn't a fair problem for them. So if they suddenly ninja'd a diplomatic victory before you got your space race, it would feel extremely cheap.

It wouldn't feel any more cheap than the bonuses the AI already gets. I just want more of a challenge. My next game is going up a level to Emperor. Hopefully I'll actually have to try to win this time.

What I'd like to see is some of the players who are farther beyond form an alliance and start attacking people together if they got too far ahead to bring them back down. 1-2 AIs attacking me at once I can handle. But if 3-4 got together there is a chance I might get spread too thin.

This is one of the main things I'm hoping for. Currently, the AI seems to only look at its strength vs. its opponent. It would be nice if it looked at multiple AI civs and combined their strengths together and attacked that way, maybe even in a coordinated effort. Like when multiple civs DoW you, the AI treats the armies of those civs as one army. So instead of having them come in waves that you can easily wipe out, have them attack together.

 

[crossmr]

It wouldn't feel any more cheap than the bonuses the AI already gets. I just want more of a challenge. My next game is going up a level to Emperor. Hopefully I'll actually have to try to win this time.

Sure it would. The moment UN becomes available, an AI just buys up all the city states and has a vote?
At least the other victories take time once the process is started.
You need to spend many turns building space ship parts, taking out the enemy, unlocking policies and building a wonder, etc.

This would basically be an instant victory on their part out of the blue. Buy all/enough city states, next turn have the UN finish, game.

 

[headcase]

Sure it would. The moment UN becomes available, an AI just buys up all the city states and has a vote?

The AI's gold handicap should turn off after its coffers (including gold spent on CSs) reach a certain point, although with the way some of them expand I'm not entirely sure this would fix the problem.

 

[The Pilgrim]

I think the problem with forcing the AI to win certain ways would piss of the player. Since the AI gets random bonuses and cheats sometimes money and stuff isn't a fair problem for them. So if they suddenly ninja'd a diplomatic victory before you got your space race, it would feel extremely cheap.

AI's money should go straight to your pockets. Anyway Globalization is very deep in the tech tree and if you go for science/culture victory and have a significant tech lead you're safe. If you don't you should be aware of this fact and use an actual diplomacy to prevent AI from buying your allies or convincing others to DoW your main rival to slow things down. That's how it would work in MP. Right now you win by default and AI does absolutely nothing to stop you. The only visible indication AI tries to win is a diplo penalty 'you try to win the same way we do'.
BTW, speaking of diplomatic win - it's pretty bad as well. Buying votes of all the states is too easy (although quite realistic ). At a very lest major civs should vote for two leading candidates Civ4 style. Currently their votes are irrelevant.

 

[Louis XXIV]

I think the AI are programmed to emphasize towards a victory condition, but not to leverage their massive advantage to that condition. Nor are they programmed to go all out to stop you from winning. The best I can tell is they'll hate you if you're going towards the same victory condition (which might lead to war), but, if you're going towards a different one, they'd rather try and beat you by winning first.

This makes sense to me. If you got dogpiled right before victory, the game would be less fun. Sure, it would be more challenging, but it might just force you to go for conquest victory instead of the spaceship victory you've been planning your game for. Also, since the AI usually gets a huge gold advantage, if they just bought up all city-states, there would be nothing a player could do besides conquer those same city-states (which isn't fun either).

 

[Ranos]

Sure it would. The moment UN becomes available, an AI just buys up all the city states and has a vote?

At least the other victories take time once the process is started.
You need to spend many turns building space ship parts, taking out the enemy, unlocking policies and building a wonder, etc.

This would basically be an instant victory on their part out of the blue. Buy all/enough city states, next turn have the UN finish, game.

No it wouldn't.

If you see an AI with massive gold that is probably aproaching globalization, then you start taking out the CSs and or wage war against that AI. Bribe other AIs into Dowing that AI.

Basically, the player would have to do the same thing I am saying the AI should do when you get close to a culture, diplo or science win.

What do you do if an AI is getting close to a science or culture win? Do you just sit there and say 'thats cheap because they have more production or more culture than I do'? Or do you go to war or use diplomacy to do everything you can to stop the AI?

The only difference is that it would be more challenging to stop the AI from getting the diplo win vs stoppping it from getting the science or culture win.

In every game I have played, I either got wiped out in the early to mid game from the AI conquering me or I made it to the late game and got my own science, culture or diplo victory. This doesn't include my domination victories.

I would actually like to see the AI be a challenge in the late game. Even if it means a "cheap" diplo victory.

 

[crossmr]

If you see an AI with massive gold that is probably aproaching globalization, then you start taking out the CSs and or wage war against that AI. Bribe other AIs into Dowing that AI.

and you know they're approaching globalization how?

With a science victory you get several announcements about parts being built. Globalization, you'd basically get 1 turn to fix. A sudden announcement that they've allied with numerous city states and next turn, vote.

 

[Ranos]

Well lets see. How about we take a look at the techs from the two levels before Globalization.

The first level of techs in the modern era leading up to Globalization are Plastics and Penicillin. On the same level as those are Electronics, Mass Media, Radar and Atomic Theory. So if you see an AI with Mech Infantry, you know they have electronics. If they have built the Pentagon, they have Radar. If they have Bombers, they have Radar. Etc, etc.

The second level of techs in the modern era leading up to Globalization is Ecology. On the same level as that are Computers, Rocketry, Lasers and Nuclear Fusion. So if you see and AI with a SAM, you know they have Computers. If they have Modern Armor, they have Lasers. Etc, etc.

Now I could be wrong but the AI seems to mostly build in levels, not advancing too far ahead on one path. So if an AI has Mech Infantry, it has Electronics, which means it either already has or will soon have Plastics and/or Penicillin. If the AI has Modern Armor, it has Lasers, which means it either already has or will soon have Ecology.

So you can tell how far along the tech tree the AI is using this method. You should be able to estimate how long you have before they get to Globalization and be ready to attack if you aren't close enough to your own victory.

You can also tell if they are already at Globalization and building the UN because the wonder will show up in one of their cities under construction.

 

[tarsier]

Sure it would. The moment UN becomes available, an AI just buys up all the city states and has a vote?
At least the other victories take time once the process is started.
You need to spend many turns building space ship parts, taking out the enemy, unlocking policies and building a wonder, etc.

This would basically be an instant victory on their part out of the blue. Buy all/enough city states, next turn have the UN finish, game.

doesn't the vote take 10 turns?

in which case, all you need to do is buy all the city-states you don't already own and declare war on the civ with UN. the city-states become locked, and most will vote for you.

 

[crossmr]

So you can tell how far along the tech tree the AI is using this method. You should be able to estimate how long you have before they get to Globalization and be ready to attack if you aren't close enough to your own victory.

You can also tell if they are already at Globalization and building the UN because the wonder will show up in one of their cities under construction.

You're guessing though and have no idea if they're going for globalization and the UN, and the second part assumes you can see all their cities

in which case, all you need to do is buy all the city-states you don't already own and declare war on the civ with UN. the city-states become locked, and most will vote for you.

Assuming you have the cash to out deal their bonuses.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

I get attacked all right, but the AI rarely chooses a moment that would suit them and often falls into OCD. Recently Genghis Khan backstabbed me. I destroyed his army, he gave me money and we made peace. After that he basically attacked me EVERY TEN TURNS. The moment our latest peace agreement ran out he'd declared war. I made a habit of selling him resources for all his money whenever we have been at peace for nine turns. He always took the deal and he always attacked the later turn. This works with every AI. If they attack you ten turns after the first war is over you can be sure they'll do it again and again and you can exploit their idiocy to get all their money.
The AI is not really trying to win, it's just trying to annoy you, otherwise they wouldn't do things like sit on their 20.000 gold reserve while you win a Diplomatic victory.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Honestly, if the AI with lots of gold automatically went for diplo victory, it would distract from my ability to win the game far too much. Plus, I'm not sure why I should have to be the policeman. Why can't the other AI (many of whom often also have lots of gold) take care of enough city states to prevent the leader from winning? I'm perfectly happy with an AI attempting to win that way, I just don't think an AI who has a lot of gold because of the difficulty level should automatically try to win that way.