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AI obsession over warmongering - oh come on Firaxis, again?!

Discussion in 'CivBE - General Discussions' started by Krajzen, Oct 24, 2014.

  1. Krajzen

    Krajzen Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2013
    Messages:
    2,816
    Location:
    Poland
    - I start my PAC game absurdly close to Slavs and on the small peninsula, I could literally settle no more than two cities than capital
    - In the same time Slavs have a lot of terrain south and west from their capital, they could easily settle like 10 cities in the future
    - Good relations with Kozlov, trade, open borders
    - I settle a coastal city 6 tiles from Slav capital, close to few resources but nothing crazy
    - Kozlov goes insane :p because he doesn't have like 5 other spots to found a city while this was my only option!
    - Not to mention the fact that he created his first settler like 80 turns (epic) after mine so he was going tall

    - Declared war, attacks a city, he brings big army and almost conquers it, I am saved only because he didn't know about my experienced Marine veteran regiment in the fog of war
    - Soon: truce
    - Soon: second war about me amassing troops on his borders, I harrass him but not get his city as it is extremely fortified
    - Soon: third war about me trying to stop his expansion, I capture his settler and outpost. Not even a city. Outpost!

    ...all AI have red modifier with me as I am bloodthirsty warmonger. Because reasons. Nobody cared about violent very early attack on my city before.

    Really, Firaxis? 5 years of this countlessly criticized idiocy and it reappers in the next game? I get this is game on civ5 engine but I thought this means 'we upgraded and reused it' :/

    Do I really have to mention that I did nothing except capturing one OUTPOST after being an original VICTIM? Penalty is not big enough to make AI hate me yet but it is still stupid, not to mentiom the fact that TWO OF FACTIONS 'HATING WARMONGERS' ARE AT WAR BETWEEN THEMSELVES.

    By the way, while overall AI of Kozlov isn't tragic he managed to build two trade routes and send them through my army to their inevitable destruction. The same with few solo unit suicide attacks on my frontier city.

    How long AI improvement DLL mod for Civ5 - which really, really fixes that - exists? Half of a year? And BE is, from what I see, basically civ5 code in space? Jesus Christ.


    Other than that: game 8/10 but

    - AGAIN incomprehensible diplomacy
    - AGAIN combat AI far from perfection
    - AGAIN lack of statistical data in - game
    - pretty incomprehensible, counterintuitive interface with completely alien icons, crazy tech tree, constantly reassigning trade routes, hard to see miasma and generally too much clicks required
    - messed up balance with some absurdly awful wonders and very strong others, overpoweres trade routes
    - I am the only one who thinks there is too much miasma everywhere? :p

    + moby dick - siege worm quest reference
     
  2. Setrax

    Setrax Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2010
    Messages:
    15
    Definitely agreed.

    I'm pretty much shelving the game until a warmonger fix comes.

    I was declared wear on twice, and agreed to an allies call to war once, (On the guy who war declared me twice) and instantly everyone but that one ally considered me a bloodthirsty warmonger.

    Its absolutely insane and stupid.
     
  3. Deluxe

    Deluxe Warlord

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    249
    Makes me pretty sad and worried to see that nobody at Firaxis really cares about the AI, especially considering some really good mods here which are improving it significantly.
     
  4. Thorn

    Thorn King

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2002
    Messages:
    818
    Location:
    Project Tic-Toc
    Oh boy, the "the AI just is playing like a human" people will be along shortly.
    I had hoped this wouldn't be the case with this game. I can't stand the insane, war only AI in Civ 5.
     
  5. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2008
    Messages:
    8,621
    Location:
    Missouri
    Looks like you need to use the same diplomatic tricks in BE that you used in Civ V:

    1. Based on the description, signing the first peace treaty was a major mistake. OP instead should have kept building military units until he could conquer his capital and unblock himself to expand, leaving the AI with a useless city or two before signing peace. In addition, OP should have been prepared for a war.

    2. It's always a human mistake if the AI even calls you up about your army "too close", station your army at and in tiles on road behind your closest city NOT the border. DOWing the AI because of it simply compounds it.
     
  6. cooldude1128

    cooldude1128 Prince

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2012
    Messages:
    322
    Don't worry. I'm sure that soon enough somebody will make a fix for warmongers. There's a good one out that mostly negates warmonger penalties for civ5, so it's obviously possible.
     
  7. NASAROG

    NASAROG Prince

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2008
    Messages:
    490
    Location:
    New England
    Ah, my favorite mechanic from civ 5 using my favorite aspect of the game. Warmonger diplomacy. Time to extinguish his candle, and conquer the rest of the sheepAI.
     
  8. GhostSalsa

    GhostSalsa Emperor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    1,010
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    In CiV the lack of casis belli reasoning, that occupying a country who attempts to conquest you should not be penalized, was justified (on this forum by people who endlessly defend warmonger penalties) by saying it would have been anachronistic in all but the modern era. Now we're in the future - Hmm, still no casis belli system!

    Hmm, still no incredibly simple "warmonger penalty off" option in the game setup (how many hills are on the planet is definitely more important than this!).

    On the other hand, it doesn't really matter in BE. There's no dependence on friendly trade for luxuries/happiness/growth and no valuable city-state friendships to lose when you get hypocritical DOWs from "warmonger-haters." There's no real need for this thread, in fact! Just kidding - it's still important in a "incomprehensible-appearing AI logic sours gameplay and immersion even if there's a reason for it" way.

    But there's less reason to complain about warmonger hate in BE, because friendly diplomacy has almost no value.
     
  9. Ryika

    Ryika Lazy Wannabe Artista

    Joined:
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    9,395
    If anyone ever creates a mod that allows spies to fabricate a casus belli (= free DoW without diplo hit with other Civs), that person will be my hero forever.

    But actually... can't really agree with the Ai warmongering too much. My games have mostly been relatively quiet, with many DoFs and ... well, everone dogpiling on a single Civ, but... that's just how it was in BNW. ;)
     
  10. Haggbart

    Haggbart King

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2010
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    851
    Location:
    Norway
    I have the opposite impression. The AI not being nearly aggresive enough in my games. So I'm happy to hear this.
     
  11. Aedn

    Aedn Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2010
    Messages:
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    The AI isnt really aggressive at all, they just complain about you, while sending a few troops to die at random intervals. Had arc send 10 units at me, while fighting on another front, they basically milled around split up , and attacked randomly while getting defeated in detail by 2 equal combat strength units.
     
  12. TLHeart

    TLHeart King

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2005
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    2 games. wars in both games, one I was attacked by brasil, after he was the last to land, just a short distance away... he attacked with the extra units... repelled the attack, took all of his energy, and energy per turn, settled more cities...

    nobody cared.

    2nd brazillian war, I took all 5 of his cities, razed two, and puppetted the other 3.....

    no mass denouncements, no dow's, yes some of though I was a warmonger, but who cares...
     
  13. Callonia

    Callonia Deity

    Joined:
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    2,176
    Relax guys, just dow to your hearts content and have fun skirmishing.

    Its just red text.
     
  14. Khaim

    Khaim Prince

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2005
    Messages:
    394
    The AI seems to have the same eternal-hatred logic as the old city-states. After I killed off Kozlov, three of them declared on me within two turns. It's now fifty turns later, I'm holding one front, took a minor city on another, and took Freeland - and NONE of them will even talk to me. Not even Hutama. They won't even let me surrender! (Not that I would, but still.)
     
  15. TLHeart

    TLHeart King

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    why do warmongers complain about being called a warmonger? And no taking their cities is not a defense war, it became offensive at that point.
     
  16. GhostSalsa

    GhostSalsa Emperor

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    We're familiar with the warmonger penalty defending group's arguments. And I can't imagine any warmonger penalty defender who pretends to not understand why some players don't want red text over essentially role-playing the allied powers in WWII are, after dozens of earnest (sometimes histrionic, but earnest) posts on this topic, being honest.

    This is the way some people want to be able to play. Letting us play this way (opening up more nuanced AI warmonger considerations so that limited, narratively-justified aggression doesn't spawn a host of contradictory AI actions so frustrating and immersion breaking that you are compelled to quit the game for a week in disgust) wouldn't affect you at all. Honestly.
     
  17. TLHeart

    TLHeart King

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    Oct 15, 2005
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    Roll playing the allied powers of WWII.... like USA and USSR were allies, until the end of the war, when they were denounced, and the cold war began.

    Or France condemning the USA, just a short time after WWII... real world it happens.

    Plans always change when one meets the enemy, and the enemy of my enemy is not always my friend.

    In civ V, if I Had wiped an AI off the face of the world, as I have done in BE, trade was gone, happiness was gone, and I would be fighting 2 and 3 front wars...Has not happened in BE... Yes there is red text about me being a waremonger, which I was, since i committed genocide... I was denounced, but how does that hurt me? I wasn't trading any resources with them anyway. I even had the ARC declare 10 turns later... fought a defense war, and settled for peace for all her energy. And I am still a warmonger, so what, it does NOT affect the way I play the game.
     
  18. isau

    isau Deity

    Joined:
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    3,068
    I'm sad that the annoying warmonger penalty that was put in place for Civ V BNW wormed its way into this game too. That penalty really needed to be adjusted in a patch for BNW (along with some other issues). Working around leads to some ridiculous situations.

    Not to whine too much, but if I had known that this game was so similar to BNW I wouldn't have bought it. Really not every impressed with it. Just seems like a reskin.
     

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