AI Players' way of playing is very suspicious!!!

[Lord of Civ]

Sometimes i was wondering about if AIs were helping each other to defeat a human player regardless of their religion.

Based on my bad experience in one match, I founded Christian religion and i was the only Christian nation with highest score and there were many other factions with different religion. Huayna Capac and Ghandi were Hindu, Isabella and Alexander were Jewish, Julius Caesar was Confucianists, Montezuma was Bhuddist. Despite their difference in religious belief, they almost never declare war on one another and they came right at me, especially Alexander who had lowest score and Montezuma and Huayna Capac include Julius Caesar who was threatening me. They all came with surprise attack on my weak city with a big offensive army. I hate when that happens but it always happened like that. However, i succeeded in saving my city from Huayna Capac's surprise attack but on the second surprise attack by Alexander, i failed to save the northern low culture city. During Alexander's second surprise attack, Montezuma who had a different religion from Alexander suddenly declared war on me and made a surprise attack and razed my low culture city located in the eastern border. Basically, almost every AIs made surprise attack on my weak cities which was not fair and i was not pleased...

Whats all with this nonesense???
Why were everyone (AIs) going against me???!!!
Is it because i am a Human Player????
This is ridiculous...

Recently, i also heard about other people complaining about AIs cheating by using Magic Eyes from other threads. AIs do have Magic Eyes! For example AIs would come to pillage a fish resourse whenever there is no warship protecting it. When there is a good warship on fish resource, AIs would not come to pillage it. Example 2: Whenever you remove many good defensive units from a city during the war, AIs' stacked units would see that city as a target but if you put your troops back onto the city (so the city is well defended), AIs would change the direction and changing their target...... OR if the city is not well guarded or not well defended, AIs will come to attack it....

Anothing thing, some people were also complaining that AIs never attack them because AIs knew that Human Player is stronger. Once again, it has to do with their Magic Eyes. How do they know that i am weak or i am too strong for them especially in non-Spy Ages like Medieval Age. As I realized, there are no spy agents during that period of time? I concluded that they actually got Magic Eyes....

Anyway, i found that these are very suspicious acts by AIs and it is unfair and also very annoying to Human Players like me. Does it have to do with how AIs were programmed? hmmm... im wondering... That was just strange and very annoying...

Do any people agree with me?????

 

[DaviddesJ]

They heard that you were the Lord of Civ, and so they all thought that attacking you successfully would be the ultimate coup. Consider it an honor.

 

[Stylesjl]

You were the weakest powergraph-wise

The AI will eat weak people up like vultures. But sometimes i can use it to my advantage by having them declare war and then i would rush a huge army and counterattack

 

[Roland Johansen]

There exists a powergraphic in the game that shows how powerful everyone is (apparently you don't know that). The AI uses that same information that is available to the human player to determine who is the easiest target. People have looked at the game code (it's stored in an easy to access xml-file) and noticed that the AI uses the power of all of its competitors in its decision to declare war. So it has nothing to do with you, the human player, but just with your lack of military power.

The ratio in power is not the only thing that determines war or peace, but it is important. Another important thing is the relationship between nations. While religion is important, it's not the only factor in relationships between nations. If I may guess, you sound like the type of player who will never gives into demands of any kind. Guess what that does for relationships... Of course trading and open borders are also very good for relationships. You might want to take a good look at all of the diplomatic modifiers that you have with other nations and you might find the cause for all of the hostilities.

There is also a random factor in war declarations. I've had some stupid ones, where a weaker player attacked me and I subsequently conquered its nation. It wouldn't be a fun game if you could 100% predict the conditions under which the AI will attack you. But usually, there is a good reason that they pick you. By using diplomacy carefully, I can usually avoid being declared war on. And that is at immortal-deity level where the AI's are typically bigger and stronger than you for a large part of the game.

The AI also does not have magic eyes about your city defences. It does spread its religion to your cities and if some of your cities have a religion of which they have the holy city, then they can see the city, its defences and the immediate surroundings. It will also use spies to check out your cities. And last but certainly not least, it will actively scout your lands; ships moving along your borders, units of nations with whom you have an open borders treaty will enter your lands to find out where you have the most units.
This scouting information will of course not be up to date when they attack. I've noticed this once when a nation opened a surprise naval invasion at the tile next to the staging area for my own invasion. 10 turns earlier, when the nation had scouted the area, it had been a moderately defended area and the 15 unit naval invasion could have caused me serious problems. Now, it only succeeded in postponing my own naval invasion plans a few turns as my 25 unit stack needed time to recover from the damage it had taken. If the AI really new about my city defences, then it would not have attacked my most heavily defended city.

The AI is also programmed to combine a frontal assault land attack, with a backdoor naval invasion in the hope that your backdoor cities are weakly defended. Of course that is often the case, so that is just good programming.

All of this leads to a fairly competent AI, but I wouldn't go as far as to say that the level of AI war efforts borders on the magical level. I'm not that impressed.

 

[FeelGood]

Another possible reason is every AI knows that you are becoming weaker when attacked. Of course like human, they will take the advantage of this. I don`t say that they`re really intelligent but as mentioned above, they use powergraph to evaluate before declaring war.

Everyone wants a piece of your land for the spoil of war.

 

[Lord of Civ]

I did not even have 1 second to rebuild huge army in order to be a superpower and to defend myself from AI bullies because everyone starts attacking me. There were 4 surprise attacks on my weak cities and i was already weakened by the previous wars before they finally razed my cities.

AIs do have magic eyes. Try making a scenario and test to see whether they got magic eyes or not. Leave your fish resource undefend and you'll see that an AI warship would come to pillage it. Then, reload the game and this time put a good ship above the fish, then they would not come to pillage the fish. Or try leaving a small boat in the middle of the ocean for a long time and see what would happen next... Well, try explaining this...

Another example posted by another member on another thread:

Another way to see it. if your map has a good choke point, such as the 1 tile hill connecting africa with euro-asia on a world map (suez canal), fortify units on that choke point. i was playing cathage and had taken over north africa, and fortified suez canal. i had also captured madrid from spain. china declared war on me, and started marching toward madrid. i was able to see their movement because i had a holy city. once their stacks had moved into turkey, i moved the suez canal defenders off the choke point. immediately their stacks turned around and came south to cross the suez canal. i then moved the suez defenders back into position, and they turned around and went back into turkey. i was able to bounce around their huge stacks for many turns before i sued for peace. again keep in mind, i had a holy city enabling me to see them, but the chinese had no holy city and no unit close to suez to observe me. they just know when a choke point is open and when it's closed. you can also confirm this on special maps like spiral, etc.
I hope that Civ Designer Team would disable this magic eye of AIs.

My experience:

Germans brought their Panzers down to my capital city but after defending my capital city very well, they suddenly turned back into the border of Roman Empire. Then they came back to a weak defended city so i moved my infantries and cavalries back to that city which was a target for stacked German Panzers. After that, they turned back again!!! And they headed to their old target (my capital city). This had repeated for 4 times until peace treaty was made! Their strong Army almost never attack me which was amazing! Another thing, the Germans were on the same continent so there was no Suez Canal that connects 2 continents and they were 6/8 blocks away from my capital city and they don't have a holy city so I assumed that they could not see how many soldiers i got inside my capital city but they actually do. The AI Players do have Magic Eyes!

I normally fooled the AIs to come and attack a city that I intentionally did not defend well so they would end up in my trap. hehe!!! AIs can see things that we could not see. It is not hard to tell at all and easy to test it. They really should re-program the AIs to make it fair for Humans and the exceptions would be the difficulty levels.

Anyway, thanks people, for giving me information about the Powergraph. I was actually too buisy looking at the Scoregraph than a Powergraph...

 

[DrewBledsoe]

I did not even have 1 second to rebuild huge army in order to be a superpower because everyone starts attacking me.

AIs do have magic eyes. Try making a scenario and test to see whether they got magic eyes or not. Leave your fish resource undefend and you'll see that an AI warship would come to pillage it. Then, reload the game and this time put a good ship above the fish, then they would not come to pillage the fish. Or try leaving a small boat in the middle of the ocean for a long time and see what would happen next... Well, try explaining this...

Another example posted by another member on another thread:


Anyway, thanks people, for giving me information about the Powergraph. I was buisy looking at the Scoregraph than a Powergraph...

You know, for a long time, I would have disagreed with you over this, but recent experiences with barbs have shown different.

Example:- I had the Great Wall, and my cultural boundaries spread the whole distance of the continent (north to south)with a small one square width corridor between 2 cities, and since the barbs coming from the west couldn't enter my territory, this was the only way to get at the nations to my east.

Now there was still a huge amount of unoccupied land, and the barbs wiere coming non-stop along my borders, so I could see them but they couldn't touch me. Just be placing one troop in the zone I mentioned earlier shut off their route to the east. But if I moved this troop, and left the corridor open, they then knew it was open, even ones 20 tiles away. I kept moving the troop in and out of the corridor, and watched the barbs behave like yo-yos.

Even though they had no possible way to know, they did know when the corridor was open. I can't personally vouch for whether the AIs know stuff like this too, but I suspect they do.

So in some circumstances, the "opposition" in the game does indeed behave with the "magic eye" ability.

 

[Lord of Civ]

You know, for a long time, I would have disagreed with you over this, but recent experiences with barbs have shown different.

Example:- I had the Great Wall, and my cultural boundaries spread the whole distance of the continent (north to south)with a small one square width corridor between 2 cities, and since the barbs coming from the west couldn't enter my territory, this was the only way to get at the nations to my east.

Now there was still a huge amount of unoccupied land, and the barbs wiere coming non-stop along my borders, so I could see them but they couldn't touch me. Just be placing one troop in the zone I mentioned earlier shut off their route to the east. But if I moved this troop, and left the corridor open, they then knew it was open, even ones 20 tiles away. I kept moving the troop in and out of the corridor, and watched the barbs behave like yo-yos.

Even though they had no possible way to know, they did know when the corridor was open. I can't personally vouch for whether the AIs know stuff like this too, but I suspect they do.

So in some circumstances, the "opposition" in the game does indeed behave with the "magic eye" ability.

Thanks for posting your experience DrewBledsoe and thanks for supporting on the possibility that AIs are suspicios (sometimes) and do have Magic Eyes or could possibly cheated on human players.

Thats another great example of how AIs cheat on human player. It also reminds me of AIs or Bots from other game whether it is action games or strategic games or arcade games. AI or Bot's skill is based on cheating. For example, in Counter-Strike action game, bots skill or difficulty levels is nothing than just cheating and auto-aiming. If they shoot better, it is because they had more precise auto-aim at a target. Ive tested on how AIs cheated in all the games ive played.

Unlike chess, in Civ4, AIs could have some better advantages against human like their infamous Magic Eyes for spying and the game is also based on a player's luck and depending on how you started the game rather than on how well you play or how smart you are. If i found out that the game is too unfair like my capital city started in a desert or having less resources or a warrior took 15 turns instead of 8 turns or i end up on a small island/peninsula/choke point of 2 continents, then i would cancel the game match and restart the game or regenerate the map.

 

[DaviddesJ]

If i found out that the game is too unfair like my capital city started in a desert or having less resources or a warrior took 15 turns instead of 8 turns or i end up on a small island/peninsula/choke point of 2 continents, then i would cancel the game match and restart the game or regenerate the map.

Yes, I think this sort of human cheating is more pervasive than AI "cheating".

 

[Lord of Civ]

Yes, I think this sort of human cheating is more pervasive than AI "cheating".

You were saying i cheated? Weren't you? Thats a little bit strong, bad accusation...

I called it Common Sense and it has nothing to do with human cheating because i followed the game rules while playing. You cannot just say humans cheated because they close and regenerate the map or restarting the game. Playing the match you hate is not an obligation, and you could restart the game match, in case if things are going ugly. Remember that in every first turn of the game, their is "Regenerate Map" in the Game Option, so if i don't like the map and if i don't feel like continue the match, i could regenerate it with no big deal.

Would you start a bad game like being a stupid island nation which is constantly bullied by idiots???

Come on! Face the fact. Every players wanted to win and have a fun, good match. Only stupid ones would continue that kind of game.. You must be kidding me. I already had many bad experiences about starting a game like that.

I can guarantee you that starting the game like that, you would have less chance to win with a low score. The world is filled with AI bullies and you know that.

We are actually talking about seeing things that players should not be able to see or doing things that they are not suppose to do like using Magic Eyes. So you missed one important point here.

Another thing, before you would call me as a sucky, lousy player, then let me tell you that i am a very good chess player. Unlike Civ4, in chess, luck plays less role than skill. You got to really be good, smart in order to win. However, i still like Civ4 game but i have rights to tell the truth about the unfairness of the game and things that AIs can do while we humans cannot do. You see? Whats so bad about that???

I think that you had to "Read Your Luck" more and don't be fool by AIs. Be smart...

Anyway, if you like that kind of match then it is your problem.

 

[DaviddesJ]

I called it Common Sense and it has nothing to do with human cheating because i followed the game rules while playing.

So it would be ok if the AIs regenerated the map if they don't like their starting position? I would think you would find that a bit frustrating, if you played the game for a while and then one of the AIs hit the "reset button".

 

[Lord of Civ]

So it would be ok if the AIs regenerated the map if they don't like their starting position? I would think you would find that a bit frustrating, if you played the game for a while and then one of the AIs hit the "reset button".

"Reset button" was designed for humans, not AIs. It is my will to press it or not. If they were unlucky and lost, then please don't assume that i am a cheater because i always follow the game rules. It means they lost because they are cheaters and they were unlucky. Regenerating map or not is not an obbligation. Some other members who use this option might also be offended by your statement and my thread would risk to be broken and locked. Get it? Period.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Trust me, I have not had the AI do this to me, but I HAVE had MP game players get 'restarts' because they were in 'bad' positions. Only problem was that-by the time these guys were happy, it was ME in the crap position . Just as well I enjoy a challenge .
As for the accusations of AI cheating (magic eyes and what-not), I have yet to see any example of this myself. I do remember it from Civ3, though, and have noticed a massive change in AI behaviour between 3 and 4 as regards AI map knowledge.

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[bitplayer]

Trust me, I have not had the AI do this to me, but I HAVE had MP game players get 'restarts' because they were in 'bad' positions. Only problem was that-by the time these guys were happy, it was ME in the crap position . Just as well I enjoy a challenge .
As for the accusations of AI cheating (magic eyes and what-not), I have yet to see any example of this myself. I do remember it from Civ3, though, and have noticed a massive change in AI behaviour between 3 and 4 as regards AI map knowledge.

Aussie_Lurker.

With some of the guys I play with it sometimes seems like we restart for one reason or other at least 4 or 5 times. Which is ok by me as it only makes sense for us to all have a spot we're happy with if we're going to spend a week playing a game against each other and the ai.

Just isnt the same if one of us gets knocked out early or is in the middle of antartica and cant keep up.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Some other members who use this option might also be offended by your statement

That's fine with me. If they portray their cheating as different from the AI's cheating, they should reflect on the notion of hypocrisy.

 

[Lord of Civ]

That's fine with me. If they portray their cheating as different from the AI's cheating, they should reflect on the notion of hypocrisy.

Notice the forum rules......

The statement you made could be seen as "trolling" because it is not true and its not correct. You were clearly saying people cheated because they restart or regenerate the map (what you called "human cheating").... Personally, i would not over react much to your accusation but some people would....

Anyway, i have no hard feelings with you because i am a nice guy who also respect other people's opinion and i am not a mad man. I was just explaining because you were stating wrong thing (your first post). You might check your statement carefully next time even if you did not mean to be offensive. Remember that the forum is a very controlled environment. How many people got banned due to unintentionally making false statements and they were accused to be trolls. There are many unintentional trolls on internet. you know? Jumping to conclusion is another bad habit.

Anyway, please feel free to post your opinion about why you agree or disagree with no trolling statement about the thread. Lets be friends! You're welcome and have fun!

You got no freedom of speech sir... hehe!

 

[Lord of Civ]

errrhum!!....... Sorry, for being a bit off-topic and derailing the thread. Lets get back to the topic.

Well, anyone else want to share their experience??? Anyone agree or disagree?

PS: Sorry for double posting......

 

[3 EMS]

Come on! Face the fact. Every players wanted to win and have a fun, good match. Only stupid ones would continue that kind of game.. You must be kidding me. I already had many bad experiences about starting a game like that.

Some people would welcome the challenge. Others still are successfull at overcomming these challenges. These people are probably not stupid. That being said, If restarting is how you play and you are happy playing that way then good. Whatever is fun do it. I don't but that is how I have fun.

I see some merit to your "magic eyes" argument. Every turn the AI has to evaluate the map and send its forces somewhere. It probably can't distinguish between a path that is temperarily or permanantly blocked. This might have something to do with it changing course if you move troops. I don't know if this is true, I haven't studied the source code. I am just making my own guess at the situation.

Back to your problem of getting attacked. It just sounds like your defense strategy needs some work. Like your not strong enough to crush the first attack. If you do good enough, there won't be a second. You should be able to go on the offensive if attacked. Don't just sit back and try to defend. Be ready to attack. Once the AI's cities are threatened you won't have to worry about backdoor attacks. They'll try it but once they start losing cities they'll have other things to worry about.

Your smart. Just keep playing and you will figure all this stuff out. You will get good enough at it that you won't be worried about "magic eyes".

 

[DaviddesJ]

Notice the forum rules......

I'm about 60 times as familiar with the forum rules as you are.

If it's cheating for the AI to do things that the human player can't (like knowing the locations of human units), then it's also cheating for the human to do things that the AI can't (like reloading until you get a favorable map).

That seems perfectly clear. There's no "trolling" here.

 

[T.A JONES]

Trust me, I have not had the AI do this to me, but I HAVE had MP game players get 'restarts' because they were in 'bad' positions. Only problem was that-by the time these guys were happy, it was ME in the crap position . Just as well I enjoy a challenge .
As for the accusations of AI cheating (magic eyes and what-not), I have yet to see any example of this myself. I do remember it from Civ3, though, and have noticed a massive change in AI behaviour between 3 and 4 as regards AI map knowledge.

Aussie_Lurker.

Really massive changes huh, you never did say for better or for worse.

Hey Aussie! really though Im starting to think you like Civ4 a lil more then its predessor No matter how bad you were hurt in the past, your ill feelings to Conquests aside Id still like to hear the massive improvments If thats what you were implying .

I see newly improved(NOT) 'AI turtle Up' strategy implimented. I think the Ai has 'changed' with the notion that the best offensive is a great defence. Lets replay storys of all the spurned members or better amazed at the defeats they undergo at the hands of some shy Civ to scared to come out of his hole, or really to smart knowing the player will want to actually play the game and come and get em. the glitch in its favour. Is that improved Ai?

Im thinking some Programmer realized this and made the fix, thats why they made that killer caterpult in the X pak. Smart? no really its just Sad,