Air power not important?

[Steve Thompson]

I just got an interesting idea about Industrial Age warfare (I don't fight much in the Modern Era because I'm king of the mountain by then). Tell me if you've ever done this before...

When I can build tanks, infantry, fighters, bombers, and artillery, here's what my military is usually composed of:
60% infantry, spread out for border defense and grouped for protecting tanks and artillery
10% artillery, mostly for bombing cities but also for units
15% airplanes, mostly for attacking infrastructure but also for cities and units
10% armor, grouped or put in armies for taking the most important tiles and cities
5% marines & paratroopers, for taking islands and far-away cities

But, recently, I happened to fight a civ with very few railroads, in a large contintental invasion. I only had an est. 40% infantry (!) and built more Panzers! The result? They were all I needed! I had so many Panzers that I could take 1 city and thus the roads around it, use them to race to another city, and then another - 3 consecutive cities, defended rather heavily, all stormed violently in the same turn by nothing but Panzers, and this occured with 2 separate drives taking 3 cities each in different parts of America's empire! In total, my Panzers took 6 cities in 1 turn!

But, my infantry lagged behind and couldn't participate much or help defend the captured cities and weaken Panzers. My artillery was only close enough to the front to provide support for the 1st attack, and then they had to wait until the next turn to move again, and thus end up very far behind! My paratroopers were flown in to help defend/garrison some of the captured cities. The next turn, my exposed and damaged Panzers had to fend off a few American tanks and counter-attack on their own, and they still managed! With infantry and artillery lagging on roads, the Panzer drove again and took 3 more cities, having destroyed many American units the 1st turn and more this turn, leaving them with little else but city garrisons.

My aircraft proved especially disappointing: the 1st turn they did indeed help, but their range is limited and so they only helped for 3 or 4 of the cities I took, and when they did help, well, Industrial Age planes aren't that great anyway, and I only had like 15 bombers and 6 fighters, so they really didn't play a great part, especially since improvements kept getting hit! Then, after helping the 1st turn, they couldn't help the next turn because I had to wait for the Panzers to finish their work on their own and then re-base my planes to the new frontline cities for next turn! My Panzers were getting too far ahead of my land units and air units! Air power could only be used every other turn!

So, do you think it would be good to fight a large contintental war with lots of Panzers/tanks and few artillery/air units? It seemed to work this time! If I have enough Panzers to keep up an advance through enemy territory, the AI civ won't have much time to produce more units of his own to replace the ones killed in the 1st and 2nd turn - this is what happened! America is now 5 cities, down from like 20 or 25 after several turns of Panzer attacks and a harsh treaty which grabbed 3 small frontier cities. Nice...

I'm only going to make significant numbers of Industrial Age air units when my armor can't reach enemy cities easily. In fact, the last few turns of that war my Panzers had to slow down and wait for the air units to catch up and for infantry to garrison captured cities. If I just make like 75% Panzers and 20% infantry and 5% air units, I think I'd be okay for almost any major continental war. True, my planes came in handy later when I had to put then on carriers for an island campaign, but they weren't worth jack for that American war on the mainland...

 

[TimBentley]

What level are you playing? On the higher levels, artillery/bombers are necessary. If you try to blitz with just panzers, you'll have trouble dealing with the AI's large number of units. But even on emperor, you can win a military victory without artillery (I think it's possible, but not advisible, even on diety (there's a diety SG without artillery)).

 

[IbnSina]

I use mostly offensive units all the time - not just in the industrial age. However, I always find artillery to be important. On the other hand, if your opponent does not have many railroads, that means he is probably technologically backward as well, so overrunning him with tanks is perfectly reasonable. When you fight a foe that is technologically equal or superior to you, then you'll need the artillery and air power, but then you'll have the railroads to move the artillery around.

 

[Nailo]

I play on Warlord mode and Blitzing with Panzers works most of the time. I build about 20 bombers and 2 fighters in each of my important cities to control the skies. As for my artillery I have 20 or more depending on the size of the empire. The number of infantry I bring depends on the number of cities the enemy has. If the enemy has 25 cities bring 50 infantry, only 10 cities bring 20 infantry, get the idea. As for the Panzers, I have two way to find the number A) If you have a spy, check the number of defence units they have and double it. B) If no spy, count the cities and triple the number, and thats your offance. It is a good plan of attack for me.

 

[rysingsun]

i agree strongly about the complaint that bombers can typically be used only every other turn on fast offensives. keep in mind though that the artillery can be used every turn even if the enemy has no railroads as long as you can commit a couple dozen of your own workers to railing up everything to the front line as you go. and i recommend you do so because it not only allows the slower units to keep up with the faster units but it allows such luxuries as having heavily damaged units rail back for repairs in a city with barracks, rapid reinforcement of the line by new production and others.

 

[Tomoyo]

I agree with rysingsun. Bombers are way too slow. The only reason to have planes is to defend your lands from being bombed.

I do use a few bombers to cut off resources or to kill redlined units, but I rely on artillery more. Going straight ahead with Tanks is suicide.

 

[Steve Thompson]

Is it me, or do you have a different avatar every time?

That game, I was playing on Emperor, with rules edited so that the AI doesn't have extra starting units.

I've had to play against other civs almost on par with me, and I did use air units more effectively, because the Panzers generally didn't advance as fast since more advanced civs have tanks and counter-attack my weakened offensive units if they're exposed. But since I play to get ahead in the tech tree (and build cities) and explode militarily in the Industrial Age, I always have tanks/Panzers a few turns before anyone else. I rush a bunch of them, and invade someone with cavalry. But when I run up against a civ that's big and advanced with a large army, I do have to use aircraft more and it pays off more, because the front lines don't shift as rapidly. Aircraft are also good on carriers and for bombing civs your offensive units can't reach. But in fast, planned invasions over land, which is what I like (I hate slow wars!) Panzers dominate. If there's railroads, I bring artillery, but even then they fire once, and that's their turn. By the way, that American civ I crushed with Panzers was advanced - they had tanks and some planes - and they had coal for 20 turns, when I traded it to them. I invaded when the deal expired because they were pissing me off. Don't ask me why the Americans (industrious!) didn't build many railroads in 20 turns...

Using Workers to build rails in new cities is a good idea. I've tried it before a few times but they always lag behind and unless I have in excess of 40 workers the rails don't come fast enough! I think the next time, I'm going to use Panzers in mass attacks but then slow them down, and attack again when they are supported by air and artillery. Although the AI makes more units every turn I take to capture his cities, I think that it's worth it to have the bombard support. That one game was probably just a freak now that I think about it...

 

[rysingsun]

since i got conquests ive so far played all of two games, both on huge maps. i *thought* the bombers were going to be king because of their ability to kill units.

im still unimpressed.

for one thing dont tanks have the ability to kill units too? and dont artillery do a fine job of redlining the units so that the tanks can kill?

here is what i found about the difference between bombers and artillery.

bombers cost 100 .. umm .. i think ... unless its 120 .. i think its 100. artillery cost 80.

bombers supposedly have a little more punch against troops outside of cities although i certainly didnt notice it.

but the real difference lies in how they attack cities. artillery seems to only hit units. it might do an average of one hp damage on an infantry in a midsized city per artillery-turn. in contrast the bombers seem to be more interested in taking out the city infrastructure leaving me a barren city when i capture it. argh! now in vanilla the artillery hit the infrastructure too. thus they are much more powerful in conquests than they were in vanilla. they have increased in power much more in my opinion than bombers have.

i LIKE to redline units. i DONT LIKE to kill them with my bombers. redlined units are what get your panzers promoted first to elite and then to leader rather than killed. keep in mind if a tank survives 2 out of 3 attacks it probably wont produce a leader. it probably will never even become elite. now in vanilla it doesnt matter all that much because armies kind of stink in vanilla and you just dont need a huge number of leaders for building wonders. but in my second (most recent) conquests game i did finish the game having put together 30 armies all but 2 of which survived the duration of the game. and the modern armor armies killed about two dozen units EACH without artillery support in a 12 turn blitz across 2/3 of the (huge) map. i know this is beginning to sound like a plug on conquests armies but remember that most of those armies would not have existed if i had not redlined the enemy units with artillery before attacking them with my armor.

as for what you said about workers an extra dozen workers *might* have made the difference between them keeping up on the rails and falling progressively behind.

on a standard size map i usually go offensive when i get about 50 artillery and 50 cavalry (sometimes much less cavalry if i have an alliance). late in the war i may be up to 100-150 artillery and 70-100 tanks. i rarely have a game go as far as modern armor although my last one did because i got waaaay behind in tech and when i finally got espionage i had a lot of stealing to do to finally catch up. when i finally caught up i was in the modern age. ... then i completed darwins and got the modern armor. (lol! the ai was all in war mobilization and couldnt build darwins HAHA).

/tangent ... espionage can sure ruin a reputation ... its worth it though.
/tangent2 ... a 25k tech can be stolen for 2700 gold if you win the die roll.

oh yeah getting back to what i was saying. its all offense and artillery for me. cavalry (tank panzer whatever) and artillery pretty much is my army. a handful of infantry sprinkled in .. like maybe 20 some of which are conscripts.

in war there is no worker assignment that compares in importance to railing up the front lines back to your core. if you are short on workers give the irrigating and mining the shaft. the front line must be railed up. your artillery gunners will thank you.

yes tomoyo changes her avatar like a girl changes her clothes. be nice to her because she is a moderator. tell her she is pretty. dont listen to her when she tries to tell you she isnt a girl

 

[Tomoyo]

yes tomoyo changes her avatar like a girl changes her clothes. be nice to her because she is a moderator. tell her she is pretty. dont listen to her when she tries to tell you she isnt a girl

Since when was I a mod? And haven't I told you people enough that I'm not a girl?!

 

[slightlymarxist]

Bombardment absolutely rule. I just finished a game with Scandinavia, using nothing but Berzerks, Galleys and Trebuchets.

I got eleven MGLs.

ELEVEN!!

 

[rysingsun]

Since when was I a mod? And haven't I told you people enough that I'm not a girl?!

wow - i just checked and you really arent a mod! i always thought you were

yes of course you told us. otherwise how would i know. i was teasing you. please dont take offense in it. as for the avatars i like them. i never meant my comments on them to be taken in a negative way and if it came out that way i apologize.

 

[Tomoyo]

No offense taken. If I was really offended, my response would not have included the .

For some reason, I never use the smilie at posters. The smilie maybe, but never the .

Anyway, I'll have to keep quiet about my desire to be a mod if I ever want to be one...
































Damn.

 

[Aegis Shield]

I feel like I'm going against the grain here, but my preferred military is around 30-40% artillery, 10% tanks for defensive speed, and 50-60% infantry. I realize speed is devastating, but I've also learned that I can't be trusted with speed. My tanks, especially my panzers, get too far ahead of my infantry, and I lose TONS of offensive units. If you're a representative government, tanks are the way to go, but if you can take the time with a communist or fascist government to fight slowly then infantry are generally easier for careless people such as myself.

With just 20 or so infantry, three tanks for speed-killing of units in my way, and 20 or so artys in a stack, I can take a city a turn and start moving towards the next city while reinforcements that consist of pure infantry come up behind my main line and control the cities. I generally have 5 to, in my last obscene game, 40 of these stacks walking through my enemies line. The artillery sometimes needs to be boosted when I get to the core cities, but that's just fine tuning. The wars aren't quick, they aren't very exciting sometimes, but they're safe from counterattack, high casualities on my end, and they can generally overrun any city I find.

But yeah, back to the bombers question, sort of got off topic, I try to stay away from them now. I keep a reserve behind my front lines to blast any unit OUTSIDE of a city to death, but I never use them to strike cities. I like inheriting a bunch of improvements.

 

[Luthor_Saxburg]

I realize speed is devastating, but I've also learned that I can't be trusted with speed. My tanks, especially my panzers, get too far ahead of my infantry, and I lose TONS of offensive units.

What I do is that I create an army with infantry (in an army they get +1 MP) and they follow the tanks. The AI's almost never attacks armies and even if they do, an infantry army will be a hard match.

This way I have a fast army but with protection!

BTW, I liked armies better in Vanilla! Now they are TOO good.
Actually the true sad thing is that it's a pity that AI doesn't know how to use them!

 

[Selmak]

I tend to use bombers to wipe out connecting roads. Because I have a speed disadvantage moving over enemy terrain, it's nice to even things up by forcing his units to move on the few roads I have left him, or forcing him to move over rough terrain. That'll slow down reinforcements and make them easy targets for artillery and bombers when they do arrive. By attacking terrain improvements I'm also cutting off luxury resources and limiting the production capability of cities.

Of course this only works when you have a clear lead in the technology race. I tend to use air power to capitalise on this lead and make sure I'm always in front.

 

[Scuffer]

If you let your fast units get to far ahead of everything else, they will be horribly exposed. That's as true in the real world as it is in civ.

Bombard/Bomb defences
Break through defences quickly with tanks
Get in behind, cause havoc, disrupt communications/resources etc
Let the defence catch up before serious counter attacks are organised.

Repeat

Though it does takes longer.

 

[Steve Thompson]

Tomoyo isn't a girl? Hmmm, he seems to be here enough to be a mod!

Has anyone ever tried to really "blitz" with tanks and infantry in civ before? I mean, the Panzers go ahead and take a couple cities behind the front lines, cutting off the ones at the front, which the slow infantry and artillery and aircraft besiege and capture? I've never tried to do it that way, I like to leave no cities behind my advancing units. But it sounds like something that might work: Panzers aren't slowed and the slower units don't need to be fast, right? But that would still leave the Panzers exposed! Aaaahhhhh! The eternal question: Slow the fast units, or expose the fast units?

 

[BasketCase]

If your enemy has his entire empire railroaded (and these days, what good player doesn't do that???), the situation turns into a RRR (RailRoad Rape)!

First off, your infantry can use the enemy railroads to immediately fortify your newly captured city. Second, you can use those railroads that are now within your empire (after the city changes hands and the culture borders are redrawn) to bring up more tanks and hit another city on the same turn!

This only works well with Panzers and Modern armor--the 3 movement is necessary to really do this, due to the spacing of enemy cities--but the first time I found myself wiping an entire empire off the map in one turn was just priceless.....


Edit: Uhhhhhhhh.....getting back on topic..... ......no; I haven't found air power to be very important. I've only really developed serious air power in order to stop enemy bombers from chopping up my roads and cutting off my supplies of luxuries (the AI's LOVE to do that, and will try constantly, to the exclusion of all else except maybe cutting off oil). Other than that, I've won almost all my major wars without a single bomber, and often with no use of artillery either--I prefer to capture the cities intact, take all the cool buildings, and keep the population alive so I can show them the error of their ways and convert them to serve me.

(redundant smiley, but kinda needed anyway)

 

[Steve Thompson]

Hmmm, sometimes when I try to take a city intact, it doesn't give me the improvements that where in there before, and sometimes it gives me all the improvements, why is that?

 

[Tomoyo]

It only gives you the improvements that produce no culture.