Airbases

[Kev]

There has been some "talk" of late in some of the other forums regarding the use of airbases and their effects on icons such as hills, desert and the like. I don't think that this has been discussed at length in this forum (use in GOTMs), and I was curious as to what the group thinking is about them.

They way I see it, I understand that they are part of the game and can be helpful when organizing your air attacks and defense. I think most of us would agree that the bump in food an production on certain icons was an unintended circumstance, but it should not preclude you from using them in your game at all. However, my thought would be that if you have 7 or 8 airbases in every city radius - all on hills and other such squares - while you only have a pet rival civ to contend with (who is nowhere near getting flight), then you are taking advantage of a software error.

I've never downloaded anyone else's game, so I don't know if anyone even uses airbases extensively. Personally, I've been trying to work so quickly in recent GOTMs that I've either conquored the others save a single city or ended the game before I've even had to think about them. I can't even remember the last time I've built one, but if we all agree that they are OK I surely will.

Again, I'm curious to hear what everyone thinks on this. I would not presume to set a rule against them or anything as they ARE part of the game and who the heck would ever want to be the "airbase police?"

I know that we all take advantage of some things like incremental rush building, etc. I guess it's difficult to pinpoint where it becomes unfair.

Thoughts?

 

[Matrix]

The thoughts have already passed, Kev. The airbase advantage is allowed, because we just don't want too many strict rules where, as you say, aren't clear borders.

And there are people who use it a lot too, so be my guest to do so as well. <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/wink.gif" border=0>

------------------
<IMG SRC="http://home.hetnet.nl/~maartencl/tmp/MatrixBW.gif" border=0>
Game of the Month administrator.

[This message has been edited by Matrix (edited June 18, 2001).]

 

[Smash]

I don't like them but they've been allowed from GotM 1 so...
not to mention the tedium connected with checking all the games and deciding which airbase if legal and which isn't.

 

[goodbye_mr_bond]

I've always thought they should be considered a cheat, but this question did come up around GOTM 2 or 3 I think, and Thunderfall said it's okay. I've used them (for extra food) in a couple of my GOTMs, though to be perfectly frank I'd be happier calling them a cheat. But I gotta keep up with the Joneses y'know?

It just feels dirty somehow...

 

[shadowdale]

Well there are two things to consider concerning the airbase thing.

One as Smash says, if they where considered a cheat then Matrix would have to look through all the savegames and check for airbases and the he would have to decide if they where build for a military advantage or to get the extra food - because people will build them on hills to get the defense bonus!!!!

The second thing is that what is to stop a guy from using the last two turns of his game to get his unites to pillage all the airfields?? Then you wouldn't even know that he had cheated!!!

------------------
We are species 8472 - assimilations attempts are futile - the weak shall perish

No wait we are species 5618 and we got beer...... don't harm us!!!!!!

 

[Kev]

I'm sorry that I missed the original discussion and brought it up again.

I pretty much figured that they were OK - and I made mention of the fact that the "airbase police" would never be able to discover anyone who uses them.

However, we've all agreed that replaying turns, revealing the map, saving before entering huts, etc. are all cheats (and pretty no-brainer cheats as well). Yet, there is no way to "police" those either - we all rely on one-another's integrity in these matters and, frankly, anyone who employs those types of things are the same people who would cheat at solitaire or something - it's just not fun that way.

I've had no reason to use airbases - I seldom do. I either have enough cities, I have the world under control before flight, or I end the game before the technology is available. I would hate to feel like using them to generate extra food just because everyone else is doing it and I want to keep up due to my stupidly overcoompetitive nature.

Personally, I don't think I ever will use airbases at all - definitely not for the unintended results. I don't think the results will be so debilitating as to affect my games in any major way - I just don't feel right about it. That being said, given the resluts of previous discussions here I won't pester anyone else about using them either.

------------------
Diplomacy - the art of
saying "Good Doggie"
until you can find a rock

 

[Chofritz]

I think the airbase question needs to be brought up again...

After looking at the results from GOTM 8 I can see that all of the top players (including me) has been using LOTS of airbases. After I had radio I didn't use the 'r' or 'i' keys a single time. Airbases are really good for speeding up your endgame. I don't know but some people don't want to use airbases, some only use them on hills and the fast conquerors doesn't even get a chance since they probably won't have radio when they kill the last civilization...

Should they be allowed or should there be a rules on how to use them, any thoughts?

 

[Talar]

Personally I consider this use of airbases cheating. Allowed in GOTM or not, I won't ever use it myself.

Kev had a really good point som posts up, there is no way to check all the other cheats. We are just trusting everyone not to do it. I think the same could go for airbases.

 

[starlifter]

Airbases are not a cheat. They are allowed in GOTMs. That really sums it up.

In my first GOTM, I was almost thru it when I discovered airbases were OK, and have used them ever since. Again, they are in no way a GOTM cheat.

BTW, you may not have thought about it, but Airbases really have the effect of saving late game tedium. A tile takes at least 9 eng-days to improve with a road, RR, irrigation, and farmland. It only takes 2 with an airbase, and saves a lot of "real time" and micromanagement to do that. But even airbases are not without "cost".... they omit lots of key benefits which I won't get distracted with in this short post.

So Airbases=OK.

 

[Chofritz]

Starlifter exactly which benefits do you miss if you build airbases instead of road, rail, irrigation and farmland?

 

[Matrix]

I've always considered the airbases as a cheat. You can't convince me that they were ment as replacement of railroads and farmland and that after you can build airbases, you'll never have to build railroads and farmland again...
But so far it's an allowed cheat.

Personally I also won't use airbases this way. I think it spoils the game; I just don't like it.

The end game already gives an enormous boost of your score and these airbases only make it worse!

And when we've decided they are allowed, back in June, they were only used on hills, giving two more food. I didn't know they could be used this way. So I'm open for a new discussion. And my personal opinion is that they may only be used for tactical purposes.

 

[LeSphinx]

To put everything clear:

What is allowed in the GOTM :
- Airbase
- Food Caravans

And in the Civ II Hall of Fame too ?

LeSphinx

 

[Chofritz]

Yeah I think we need such a discussion...

I think airbases is ok on hills as it was agreed on back then. But I don't think they should be used as a shortcut in the end... Using the airbases in the end is a HUGE adventage. The players that play to conqueror the world will probably not reach radio b4 they end the game and they can't use this bug for their adventage... Right now if you look on the toplist SS finish gives the best score. I think something has to be done about that. We have allready removed the SS-bug and a new scoring system is in place. But after this month if the SS are still dominating the top list I suggest putting some restrictions on the use of airbases.

This post was made in 3 min so if I say stupid things it's not my fault,

 

[starlifter]

But so far it's an allowed cheat.

First, Airbases are actually not a cheat. They are one of the dozens (if hot hndreds) of Civ II oddities in that they take 2 days to make, and give some, but not all, the benefits of 9 days of work. However, the programming team for Civ II knew about it from the outset, and did not adjust it in any patches.

The end game already gives an enormous boost of your score and these airbases only make it worse!

Well, no... the only thing Airbases can "do" that normal irrigation/farmland cannot is make an extra food on a hill/mountain, which is a very small percentage of the terrain, and a small percentage of the overall score, even on a small map.

To put everything clear:

What is allowed in the GOTM :
- Airbase
- Food Caravans

And in the Civ II Hall of Fame too ?

In a GOTM:
Airbases - Yes
Airbase On A Hill - Yes
Food Caravans - Yes
Food Caravan Trick - No

NOTE: The FCT is not the same thing as a food caravan. The FCT is using multiple food caravans from a specific source city to a specific destination city to force the destination to grow. This is especially true when forcing the destination to reach sizes that it could not obtain with it's natural food supply.

And in the Civ II Hall of Fame too ?

TF's HOF:
Airbases - Yes
Airbase On A Hill - Yes
Food Caravans - Yes
Food Caravan Trick - Yes (but no one does, unless going for an 18,000+ score where the FCT is the only option).

 

[starlifter]

The end game already gives an enormous boost of your score and these airbases only make it worse!

Actually, lets look at the issue logically. "...gives an enormous boost .." is totally untrue, and a hysterical comment to make. Airbases change a game's final score very little... and the only change comes from additional population supported on the hills & mountains.

Count the number of cities with hills/mountains with airbases, AND that have an extra citizen supported by by that airbase. In most games the number of Airbase citizens is about 20 or 30 on average. This means 20 or 30 points that are obtained with an airbase that would not have been obtained otherwise... and this is what you all discussed way back when. This is also the "trick" part of the Airbase... since it does something (on a hill/mtn) that cannot be done any other way .

In fact, the Airbase can help reduce the end-game tedium greatly, as it saves 3 of 4 steps in improving terrain. But an Airbase gives no unusual benefit, except on a hill/mtn... it does save "real-time" in micromanagement, though.

Now, if we wish to discuss eliminating farmland, or perhaps forbidding Supermarkets... that is another issue.

And when we've decided they are allowed, back in June, they were only used on hills, giving two more food. I didn't know they could be used this way. So I'm open for a new discussion. And my personal opinion is that they may only be used for tactical purposes.

Actually, airbases give only ONE more food, ever. It is the Supermarket that increases food production by 50%, and that is what gives the 3rd food on a hill.

 

[starlifter]

by Chofritz:

But I don't think they should be used as a shortcut in the end... Usingthe airbases in the end is a HUGE adventage.

Not true... only on hills/mts do airbases provide any extra food (1 food). On regular terrain, airbases do NOTHING that normal irrigation/farmland cannot do. Their net effect is to save the human some tedium in making the farmland that is going to be made anyway.

Airbases actually reduce the number of engineers needed in the endgame. If you would like to make more engineers to do the same job, feel free to do so. So the Airbases are a good timesaver, but in the end, only the "airbases on a hill" affect the final score. And this is a very small number, not a "huge advantage".

"The players that play to conqueror the world will probably not reach radio b4 they end the game and they can't use this bug for their adventage... "

"Early" CTW players also don't get any of the other late-game techs... that is a consequence of play style. One must have Automobile, for instance, to make Battleships, LOL...

Right now if you look on the toplist SS finish gives the best score. I think something has to be done about that.

LOL, what are you talking about? Of COURSE SS finishes give the best score. People that build WONDERS get the best scores. People that have more than one CITY have the best scores. And you point is .... ??

We have allready removed the SS-bug and a new scoring system is in place. But after this month if the SS are still dominating

You are laboring under a massive faulty premise... your assumption is not that any real problem must be addressed, but massaging the scoring system of the game. The choice of strategy is up to the player... But that said, remember there is a "bloodlust" option that is available in the setup conditions, LOL...

I suggest putting some restrictions on the use of airbases.

The only real "issue" is the Airbase on a Hill trick, since it is the only "extra" food producing use of an Airbase. But since it is time consuming for Matrix to check all games, not enforcable (e.g., is it tactical or not?), provides very little scoring change, and is equally available to everyone (like any technology is)... then the Airbase was allowed (long before I joined, BTW).

 

[Chofritz]

I know very well that airbases only give extra score on hills because of the extra food (also on banana and oasis I think ).

The speed of building airbases compared to do the road, railroad, irrigation and farmland is what I am talking about.

You have shown to be very good at maths and you can probably tell me how long it takes for 1 enginer to build road, railroad, irrigation and farmland on 100 grassland squares. Then tell me how many turns it takes to build airbases on all 100 squares. Now look at the difference, do you understand what I mean with HUGE adventage? How many times faster is it? Let's say 4 times faster, what if we had a bug in the the game making settlers cost 10 sheilds instead of 40, maybe you can see what I mean,

 

[Chofritz]

LOL, what are you talking about? Of COURSE SS finishes give the best score. People that build WONDERS get the best scores. People that have more than one CITY have the best scores. And you point is .... ??

And people that conquers the world DOES NOT get the best score... Understand now? Got any more questions you want me to awnser?

 

[Chofritz]

You are laboring under a massive faulty premise... your assumption is not that any real problem must be addressed, but massaging the scoring system of the game. The choice of strategy is up to the player... But that said, remember there is a "bloodlust" option that is available in the setup conditions, LOL...

I would comment this one if I understood what you said,

The only real "issue" is the Airbase on a Hill trick, since it is the only "extra" food producing use of an Airbase. But since it is time consuming for Matrix to check all games, not enforcable (e.g., is it tactical or not?), provides very little scoring change, and is equally available to everyone (like any technology is)... then the Airbase was allowed (long before I joined, BTW).

Well first of all i don't think matrix would have to check all the games for airbases even if they were not allowed. In GOTM 7 a guy called Richard or something had the fastest finish, when the game could be downloaded you (Starlifter) saw his game where he had probably used the Save and Reload function to find the last civ. He was later removed from the hall of fame (at least he isn't there anymore).

First, Airbases are actually not a cheat. They are one of the dozens (if hot hndreds) of Civ II oddities in that they take 2 days to make, and give some, but not all, the benefits of 9 days of work. However, the programming team for Civ II knew about it from the outset, and did not adjust it in any patches.

Well the it is also written in the civ 2 manual that you can always save before you enter a hut and if you don't like the outcome you can always reload the game. Neither this have been adjusted in any patches of civ 2, so we're free to use that, or are we?

Actually, airbases give only ONE more food, ever. It is the Supermarket that increases food production by 50%, and that is what gives the 3rd food on a hill.

This isn't right I think. Because you can get two extra food on banana which you can get in no other way. It is however still the supermarket that gives the 50% boast...

 

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Matrix
I've always considered the airbases as a cheat. You can't convince me that they were ment as replacement of railroads and farmland and that after you can build airbases, you'll never have to build railroads and farmland again...
But so far it's an allowed cheat.

Originally posted by starlifter
First, Airbases are actually not a cheat. They are one of the dozens (if hot hndreds) of Civ II oddities in that they take 2 days to make, and give some, but not all, the benefits of 9 days of work. However, the programming team for Civ II knew about it from the outset, and did not adjust it in any patches.

It's very easy to reply to one sentence and forget what else has been said, like you did here. I say it again, and this time try to reply to it!

You can't convince me that they were ment as replacement of railroads and farmland and that after you can build airbases, you'll never have to build railroads and farmland again...

I don't think the programmers knew this!