Aircraft: A new paradigm

[azum4roll]

Changed my proposal draft to include pretty much everything.

 

[hokath]

Nice, I like it.

A questione, why does the strength of the nuke attack depend on %health intercepted? Nukes are nukes, no?

 

[CppMaster]

Can only attack cities

I don't think I like it. How about giving it a big bonus vs cities instead, so it's not an exception that cannot attack units?

 

[azum4roll]

Nice, I like it.

A questione, why does the strength of the nuke attack depend on %health intercepted? Nukes are nukes, no?

This is the only way you can make interception matter yet not making it binary like it is currently. Just imagine the missile/plane carrying the bomb is blown slightly off course by the interception so the detonation isn't directly on the target.

Not like the flat damage across all affected tiles makes any sense right now.

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The other option is making a nuke detonate at the start of the attacker's next turn (announced to the whole world, so the affected units can scramble for their lives), but nukes don't really take a year/6 months to reach the target, and it'll be a mess handling other players' reaction if their units do get hit by the nuke even with the warning. It's unfortunate that it has to be either instantaneous or delayed for a full turn.

 

[pineappledan]

Missile Silo
Available at Rocketry
Requires 1 Oil
Standard Production cost
Standard Gold maintenance
+3 City Strike Range
+15% City Strike CS
City may attack enemy city tiles which directly hits garrison units
Changes city bombardment animation to the guided missile

Rocketry seems a bit early to me considering Arsenal only is 1 era earlier and is the first +1 range bonus. Also Rocketry already has Military base on it.

What about Advanced Ballistics in Info era? That doesn’t have a building on it and is still thematic, but later.

Nukes
Can now be intercepted in this model, but are given a high CS to endure interceptions. The attack goes through (and the unit is consumed) if it survives the interception, as usual. However, the damage it causes depends on its remaining health on detonation.

I would prefer if nuclear bombs just failed if a certain damage threshold Vs the nuke unit was met. Basically the game sends a mock bomber attack to the tile with X RCS. If the bomber receives more than Y damage trying to reach the tile the nuke strike fails.

I like that much better than the current arbitrary 75% defence rate, and MUCH better than making a nuclear warhead so more or less damage based on if it was intercepted. That’s ridiculous; either it goes off or it doesn’t.

Strategic Defense System gives the city a decent ICS to help counter both missiles and nukes, but not effective against planes. The %chance to completely block Atomic Bombs and downgrade Nuclear Missiles is dropped.

I miss the old Bomb Shelter that just cushioned the damage to cities if a nuke does go off. I think the counterplay should be entirely in interception without a pass/fail check on a building.

 

[azum4roll]

I miss the old Bomb Shelter that just cushioned the damage to cities if a nuke does go off.

It still reduces the population loss. Making it reduce city damage sounds silly, unless the bomb shelter actually covers the whole city like a dome.

I may as well add the delayed detonation now that I'm on it.

Rocketry seems a bit early to me considering Arsenal only is 1 era earlier and is the first +1 range bonus. Also Rocketry already has Military base on it.

What about Advanced Ballistics in Info era? That doesn’t have a building on it and is still thematic, but later.

Missile Silo is an optional building and is not expected to be built everywhere. It's also the current unlock tech for Rocket Missiles.

Military Base is at Radar.

 

[pineappledan]

Missile Silo is an optional building and is not expected to be built everywhere. It's also the current unlock tech for Rocket Missiles.

Military Base is at Radar.

My point stands, is early atomic too early to allow cities to double the attack range of cities, from 3 to 6 (7 with red Fort)?

I came up with a possible modification/nerf to your proposed 3 range in the other thread. Any comment?

what if the missile silo gave +1 base range (total of 4), but gave it an additional +2 (total of 6, 7 with red Fort ) when working the defense process?

That would retain the interactivity of having to “build” missiles. You get the ability to hit at range 4 unconditionally, which means you can hit cities, but the umbrella is not so large without investment.

 

[azum4roll]

When you think of it as a free weaker Rocket Missile every turn, it suddenly doesn't sound very strong anymore.

It really needs that range to replicate the current niche of hitting garrisons.

 

[usadefcon1]

Interception priority is always: Unit Health, followed by unit interception CS.

I would say AA Guns \ SAMs should always have priority, then unit health, then unit interception CS.

 

[Rekk]

If we look at the current Russo-Ukraine war as an example, missile strikes are used almost solely to target infrastructure, and there is a large effort made to be able to intercept them. They aren't what I would consider a defensive tool.

 

[balparmak]

Liking the ideas, anything that makes interception less tedious is a win, and pdan's close air support line also looks interesting. One of my pet peeves is having AAs as distinct units, imho they'd serve a lot better as support units that buff interception or air defense of adjacent units, the later would also differentiate them from fighters. I remember toying with the idea, not sure if I've ever made a working version but still it should take little AI work as their placement rules would be very similar to GGs, and their buff can be given through an aura promotion, again like GGs. Just putting it out in case there's any interest from the community.

 

[Rekk]

Liking the ideas, anything that makes interception less tedious is a win, and pdan's close air support line also looks interesting. One of my pet peeves is having AAs as distinct units, imho they'd serve a lot better as support units that buff interception or air defense of adjacent units, the later would also differentiate them from fighters. I remember toying with the idea, not sure if I've ever made a working version but still it should take little AI work as their placement rules would be very similar to GGs, and their buff can be given through an aura promotion, again like GGs. Just putting it out in case there's any interest from the community.

How does a player destroy civilian AA if they're civilian units hiding underneath military units?

 

[Stalker0]

How does a player destroy civilian AA if they're civilian units hiding underneath military units?

if you used the current airslots, then you could do it through the Air sweep mechanic that damages air units in cities when you air sweep that has no interception.

 

[Tekamthi]

If we look at the current Russo-Ukraine war as an example, missile strikes are used almost solely to target infrastructure

Remember the Moskva! /jk

But this to me is an important point. I think it's more or less what was outlined earlier in the thread re: redefining the roles of fighters and bombers and attack aircraft.

An ideal design IMO would align these weapons more closely with their real world use. To accomplish this, I think we do need a mechanism to target buildings in cities AND do ranged pillage of improvements. I realize this is a huge project both for the mechanism itself, and more importantly the AI.

The suggested models I've seen so far all strike me as half measures and somewhat gamey in their details. I'm on board with the idea that both aircraft and missiles could be done better, just not all the way there on any solutions floated so far

 

[usadefcon1]

Anyone who has heard me talk on these forums knows I've never been fully happy with air units and the current interception system. You can see my thread here where I discussed possible changes to the interception concept: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/interception-new-air-defense-only-concept-draft-1.684714/


I've been thinking about it a lot, and I believe the problem lies in the fighter. At its core, the aircraft game is setup as this exceptionally passive type system. Fighters have to give up their attacks to go into interception mode....whose entire purpose is to ensure another aircraft unit is also forced to not attack. So we have this concept whose main goal is to have two units sitting around doing nothing. We then get into the air sweep cat and mouse, where you have to have enough air sweeps to get through every interception before you can hope to actually use your aircraft for real, and then the next turn you have to do it again.... and again. It can feel fun and a little strategic once or twice, but very quickly just collapses into tedium.

What we need is an aircraft system that rewards PROACTIVE play, rather than reactive. And I think I have the way to do it.

First Up, we make several key changes to the Fighter Line of units.

1) Fighter Interception: Always on (like every other intercepting unit)
2) Gains Promotion "Dogged Pursuit": Attack is not stopped when the unit is intercepted.
3) Air sweep is removed. Gains Promotion "Air Sweep": An attack that is not intercepted does 5 damage to all adjacent air and intercepting units (aka the same as how air sweep works today, but now its just a part of the regular attack).

So this does a number of key things. First, fighters want to ATTACK. They no longer have to sit there to provide interception protection. They want to go and fight things! When a fighter attacks now, an enemy fighter might intercept them, both dealing damage to each other. But the fighter's attack still goes through (meaning they also take damage from air defense). So a fighter can get beat up attacking, but at least its attacking! Its doing things, not just sitting there.

But on the flip side, when the enemy comes to attack you, your fighters will intercept, so you better be careful! You may need to swap out damaged fighters into other cities, or bring in anti-air guns to take over the interception burden while your fighters heal. You can't just flip an interception switch on the fighter and let them become completely safe. The air game is dangerous!

Lastly, this makes soaking up interception actually an interesting part of the game. Forget the boring air sweeps, my fighters are barreling in, killing things and soaking interception at the same time. And if the enemy hasn't brought enough interception, well then that air sweep promotion still kicks in, and I can start knocking down intercepting and air units (just like it works today).

Second, we get rid of the randomness.

1) All intercepting units intercept at 100%.
2) Promos that increase interception are either removed or revamped to another purpose.
3) Interception priority is always: Unit Health, followed by unit interception CS.

While there are a lot of things in Civ that shouldn't be random, interception as especially is one of them. Its a silly balancing mechanic that isn't necessary in this new model. Now that our fighters are more active, its ok if there are AA guns around getting full interception. The fighters will do damage but take a good amount in return. AA guns will also be good defense to ensure their hurt fighters don't have to keep intercepting. With the priority note, you can spread out the interceptions to your healthy units to ensure your damaged fighters don't take too much more punishment.

And now to give bombers some fun.

Bombers gain "Carpet Bombing" promotion: Deals 20 splash damage to all adjacent units.

With the notion that fighters are more aggressive in attacking units, we want to ensure bombers have a good niche. After all they still have to wait for the interception to clear, so it can be tempting to just build all fighters. So towards that end we give bombers a good amount of splash damage, showcasing the raw area power of their big bombs. This is accurate with how bombers have historically been used in history against units, much more as a wide spread artillery shot than a precision attack. We still keep their city promotions if you want that city destroying bomber, but this ensures that bombers gain a unique power only reserved to artillery normally. While fighters can snipe key targets, bombers clear the field of opponents.



Now this model would require a thorough review of the air promotions, several would likely need to change in this model. But I wanted to start there to gauge people's thoughts, does this concept make sense, is there a terrible flaw I am not thinking about? Let me know!

Is it possible to make this into a modmod first to try it out?