ALC Game 13: Mali/Mansa Musa

[cabert]

In this situation you may not fight a lot after KK.
So it could be wise to just finish him, then cottage up as much as possible.
How many good cities do you need for a good space rush?
9 ? 10?
You could have those after the mongolian conquest.
I wouldn't raze anything. Go for code of laws, if you don't plan on warring more. The savings will allow you to focus on research, and CoL leads to CS which would be good for your "precious" capital.

 

[Rancid Sushi]

Yeah, things are looking good. Now that Stuplai Khan is on his last legs and your two remaining neighbors are Buddhist, it should be easy to stay out of conflict so you can pursue a peaceful victory. Unless Isabella builds the Buddhist shrine, there seems to be little point in taking her out since her land is rather marginal. However, if you generate a great prophet then you probably should try to get your hands on the holy city.

 

[Greeneyedzombie]

first thnx for these threads. I learn a lot of them.
maybey a quick detour for meditation? the monestaries will help the culture battle for the pigs and give a research bonus too. further they are good to whip in your newly conguered cities for some quick culture. and cheaper then libraries.
I agree with not building to much jumbo's. KK has only archers. they are better used as an deterent on your borders with issy and mehmed.
with al those grasland, and quick cottage spamming I think markets will give a greater bennifit then courthouses.

 

[cabert]

first thnx for these threads. I learn a lot of them.
maybey a quick detour for meditation? the monestaries will help the culture battle for the pigs and give a research bonus too. further they are good to whip in your newly conguered cities for some quick culture. and cheaper then libraries.
I agree with not building to much jumbo's. KK has only archers. they are better used as an deterent on your borders with issy and mehmed.
with al those grasland, and quick cottage spamming I think markets will give a greater bennifit then courthouses.

I'm regularly advocating this, but in this situation, CoL > currency :
- it's on the path to CS, and philo = liberalism
- the courthouses will give a bigger benefit (although you will need to build a lot of those) than the markets if Sisiutil keeps all the mongol cities
- currency is tradable after a while, and CoL is a good trade item

 

[Greeneyedzombie]

He seems to be close to calender if he trades for it.. and markets help increase the happines cap. meaning bigger cities, more research/gold. With markets won't he be able to tech faster and make up for the turns lost researching currency?

 

[cabert]

He seems to be close to calender if he trades for it.. and markets help increase the happines cap. meaning bigger cities, more research/gold. With markets won't he be able to tech faster and make up for the turns lost researching currency?

It's easier to finish KK then trade CoL and ?alphabet maybe? for currency.

 

[Greeneyedzombie]

I"m not used to trading, or plannning ahead. only play up to prince level. and never need to trade, because I"m way ahead of the ai most of the times.
Is CoL such a rare tech for the AI? good enough to neglect researching other techs so you can trade for it?

 

[cabert]

I"m not used to trading, or plannning ahead. only play up to prince level. and never need to trade, because I"m way ahead of the ai most of the times.
Is CoL such a rare tech for the AI? good enough to neglect researching other techs so you can trade for it?

Not always, but the AIs value the techs based on what they allow to build and what bonus they give.

CoL is a religious tech, so I assume that since the religion is gone, this tech wouldn't be very appealing to the AIs.
Pure conjectures, no hard facts here.

 

[Preston85]

Have you considered trying to produce a Great Artist to secure your borders and pigs ?

 

[Greeneyedzombie]

Have you considered trying to produce a Great Artist to secure your borders and pigs ?

that would mean a detour for music, for the GA.
or researching theathers.
it would be quicker and easyier to whip/rush some culture buildings in the city.
then to try and generate a GA.

 

[futurehermit]

just finished reading this thread. i made a longer post, but it didn't work, so i will summarize my comments here:

-i usually reload if i get two gold/gems in my capital because it's too strong of a start. to see you with two gems but only working on early on was sacrilege imho, especially as a financial leader!!!!!!

-ai always researches IW. instead of self-researching, would've been better to beeline alphabet and trade for IW!!! then construction for ele-cat. then CS to enhance your 2-gem capital. a detour for lit and GL on the way would be great.

-as you saw later you could've easily taken kublai's closer cities with chariot + skirm and then gone on to pillage the rest of his empire with your chariots. then mop him up with ele-cat and go on to issy with this same combo...

my 2 cents...

 

[Eggolas]

Don't you just hate losing a long post?

Pig War: It's a waste of hammers trying to fight Isabella at this time for the food resource. Seville has two religions and you're undoubtedly fighting not only temples, but also Monasteries that can be built (if not already). You could attempt to outbuild her, but without the mined hills for production (which you can't do effectively without chain irrigation of the grasslands), I don't see you capturing the pigs before you're ready to capture Seville.

You will be ravaging Isa, won't you?

Keep in mind that the pigs are the only food resource for both cities, so you're going to have to chain irrigate. That means CS is a decent priority tech. Then again, it's always decent for Bureaucracy and Macemen.

Build units instead of waging the culture war around Seville.

Gao is building a catapult without a barracks. Intentional?

Great Library -- I would vote for more catapults instead.

Turfan - what a nice city. Don't raze it.

Calendar trade -- well, you're going to need Calendar, it's just a matter of what you have to give up and to whom. You can wait a little as well and possibly pick it up for less research time when you actually need it.

Tech Path -- to me, Mansa Musa is all about Currency, Mints, Banks and Theocracy, at least if I want to use his ability to field a large army, absorb cities and change civics at will.

The Khan battle can be won with swords and cats. The cats that survive can be both CR2 and CR1/Acc. The swords at CR3 will do very nicely against Archers. I don't know when or if he will get Feudalism, but if you take out a major research center, he will be toast.

 

[Validator]

that would mean a detour for music, for the GA.
or researching theathers.
it would be quicker and easyier to whip/rush some culture buildings in the city.
then to try and generate a GA.

Don't forget that CoL makes caste system available which allows unlimited artists without need for a theater. I'm not necessarily suggesting that's the best way to get the pigs, but it is one option.

It's also going to be very hard to whip culture buildings in a city that doesn't have any positive food tiles.

 

[Validator]

-ai always researches IW. instead of self-researching, would've been better to beeline alphabet and trade for IW!!!

Writing plus Alphabet is a lot more expensive than researching IW directly. In this case the feeling was that Sisuitil needed to know where iron was before placing the third city. IMO it was the right call as waiting to get IW in trade from the AI would have almost certainly meant the loss of the Kumbi Saleh site.

 

[Greeneyedzombie]

Don't forget that CoL makes caste system available which allows unlimited artists without need for a theater. I'm not necessarily suggesting that's the best way to get the pigs, but it is one option.

It's also going to be very hard to whip culture buildings in a city that doesn't have any positive food tiles.

really? you don't need theaters under cast system? didn't know that. I thought you still need't a buiding wich allows artists to run artists.
with the iron and stone it shouldn't take to long to build part of it and then whip it.

 

[Validator]

really? you don't need theaters under cast system? didn't know that. I thought you still need't a buiding wich allows artists to run artists.
with the iron and stone it shouldn't take to long to build part of it and then whip it.

Caste system definitely allows artists without theaters. It's actually one of the best ways to expand borders in newly captured cities.

I agree that the iron and stone provide enough hammers to build culture buildings in a reasonable timeframe, but once those two tiles are worked KS is growing at 1 food/turn, so whipping is going to be minimal.

 

[futurehermit]

Writing plus Alphabet is a lot more expensive than researching IW directly. In this case the feeling was that Sisuitil needed to know where iron was before placing the third city. IMO it was the right call as waiting to get IW in trade from the AI would have almost certainly meant the loss of the Kumbi Saleh site.

no need to know where the iron was imo. have ivory and no copper: just wait to war with ele-cata...

 

[pigswill]

What's this culture war with Isabella over a pig? Have you lost all perspective!!

 

[Validator]

no need to know where the iron was imo. have ivory and no copper: just wait to war with ele-cata...

Ignoring iron and bee-lining Construction is a valid strategy, but it is a gamble. You're leaving yourself with limited defenses up until the point you finish researching Construction. If a neighbor with iron decides to attack you with swords during that time you don't have a counter. Skirmishers might be able to keep your cities from falling, but there would be no way to stop pillaging.

Skipping IW would get you to Construction a bit faster which means more turns to wreak havoc with your cats/ellies which is definitely an advantage. But if you get attacked when you have no defense you can basically lose the game with that move. Is the risk worth it? I didn't think so in this case and apparently Sisuitil agreed. Although as it turned there probably wouldn't have been any problem.

 

[ratrangerm]

Some quick thoughts:

* I agree with cabert that CoL is what you should pursue. It's a safe tech to trade and Mehmed should have no problem swapping Calendar for it.

* Do whip that Obelisk in the former barb city. Getting that culture going will be important, especially if Mehmed and Izzy become opportunists wanting to claim more land for themselves.

* Looks like the only Mongol cities you can safely raze are that Tsin-whatever it's called to the west of Karakorum (it doesn't look like it really has that much to offer aside from a seafood resource) and that Rice city near Timbuktu if it turns out city maintenance is becoming an issue. Karakorum and Beshbalik are too good to raze and Old Sarai should be kept to keep Mehmed and Izzy from grabbing the land for themselves.

Izzy should be pretty well contained as far as expansion goes and, as long as you remain Buddhist, she won't bother you. Mehmed is the one to keep an eye on... it's possible he could end up founding Islam (the AI's love for Divine Right means some AI civ will found it), so down the road, he could be somebody you have to take out... and if he does found Islam and converts, then you're fine going after him as Izzy will quickly become unhappy with Mehmed.

As for Kublai, finish him off now. War weariness should be manageable until he's gone for good.