Aliens ?

[Iroquois]

Az, one thing you should consider is that when the Bible was written nobody even knew that there were other planets out there. They had noconcept of universe. If they did they might have included the entire universe when taling of what God created.

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"I have brought the good tidings of Peace and Power from the Chief of the Sky Spirits to all people on earth. Bloodshed must cease in the land. The Good Spirit never intended that blood should flow between human beings. 'Yo-Hen. Yo-Hen." -De-ka-nah-wi-da

 

[spycatcher34]

lighten up! Just because AZ belives the truth(as do I) it doesnt mean you have to critize everything he says im not saying aleins dont exsist they MIGHT but i dont think so.And if you read the Bible you would see what i mean.

 

[Az]

Originally posted by Iroquois:
Az, one thing you should consider is that when the Bible was written nobody even knew that there were other planets out there. They had noconcept of universe. If they did they might have included the entire universe when taling of what God created.

Again it's wether you believe in the Bible or not. If you do then you believe everything not half of it. If you believe half of it it's like not believing at all as you miss some crucial points.

Now to answer your question.
Firstly we don't know who exactly wrote the 5 first books of the Old Testimont. All we know is that christians that met in arround 300 AD assembled all the parts they had. Now you'll tell me that those parts also were written by people who didn't know of the existance of planets or the universe.
But this is exaclty the same thing that happened with John in the book of revelation. He talks about things that will happen some thousand years later; he doesn't "see" those things. God gives him the knowledge the same way he gave the knowledge to those who wrote the Genesis.
Now if you don't believe in the fact that God has that power and gave it to those people, then you don't believe in God or the Bible; and it's ok.
BUT if you want to be called a real christian who believes in God and the Bible you have to believe in those facts too.

See? believing in aliens' existance is incompatible with christianity.

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[Scrimshaw]

So what you say, is that because native americans are not mentionned, but exist, aliens who are not mentioned either, could also exist.

Exactly.

I understand what you mean but I still feel my comparison is valid. I only intended that the bible does not refer to things that don't concern the people of the time. The people of the bible didn't care and didn't need to know about what the tribes of north america were doing so they aren't mentioned. In the same regard they don't care what's going on in space so they weren't informed by the powers that be.

To say something is not true because it's not in the bible is narrow minded in the least.

It is also possible some parables DO refer to life in space. Revelations in particular is extremely cryptic and nobody truly has any clue what exactly it means. Many other passages could be taken a number of ways and re-thought when we have more facts about life in space.

Now if you don't believe in the fact that God has that power and gave it to those people, then you don't believe in God or the Bible; and it's ok.
BUT if you want to be called a real christian who believes in God and the Bible you have to believe in those facts too.

I find this statement to be directly insulting. I would like to consider myself a decent christian and to tell me I'm not a real christain only because I think there are other forms of life out there is just wrong.

The statements in the bible are correct and I'm not going against them. I'm talking about what the bible DOESN'T say and it says nothing about other planets. The bible does not say "God created life only on the earth. The heavens were void of life forever".

Sorry to pick apart your statements so much but I feel your views are too narrow minded and you lack the ability to think upon it and come up with your opinions.

Joshua 1:8 states you should meditate or think about what is in the bible frequently so you have a greater understanding and are better able to follow it. Hope my paraphrasing is good.

 

[stellar converter]

ok, now az. the people who wrote the first 5 books of the bible(i think moses did) didnt literally see the things they wrote about. Jesus showed it to them through visions(im sure he took them to some places too). why would He confuse them by showing them other worlds where other living things were? that information would not be pertinent to our salvation(we are who the bible was written for), and it would merely confuse him, and us.

also, az, this might be a little complex for your narrow minded readings of the bible(taking it literally, etc.): where does god live? where is heaven? some sort of dream land that takes up no space(of course not)? a parallel universe(maybe thats it)? in our own universe(maybe)? god does live on a planet, that takes up space just like ours. we will have a physical body. if you want more insight on that topic(and on was there life in america), call your local mormon church! ask for a book of mormon, which was written by ancient inhabitants of america. there are also books of moses that were revealed to us, in addition to, or a more clear translation of, the book of genesis.

also, here is a possible mention of aliens in the new testament, said by jesus.(again, i dont have my scriptures in front of me, so its not exact, but it goes something like this): he has other sheep in his fold to visit.(its in john. you guys have an index, right

)

and, like you said about the book of revelation(or apocalypse, or whatever you europeans call it), john didnt know what everything that he saw was. god didnt tell him: those are airplanes, etc. he described them the best he could with the vocabulary he had available.

hope that clears some stuff up for you, mr. az.

 

[spycatcher34]

Let me take this one AZ

Originally posted by stellar converter:
Jesus showed it to them through visions
why would He confuse them by showing them other worlds where other living things were?

" If God put other beings in the univerese dont you think He would of said "Go forth unto all the universe?"-sp

that information would not be pertinent to our salvation(we are who the bible was written for), and it would merely confuse him, and us. " God's omnisceint remember"-sp

also, here is a possible mention of aliens in the new testament, said by jesus.(again, i dont have my scriptures in front of me, so its not exact, but it goes something like this): he has other sheep in his fold to visit.(its in john. you guys have an index, right "And where might this be?"-sp

and, like you said about the book of revelation(or apocalypse, or whatever you europeans call it), john didnt know what everything that he saw was. god didnt tell him: those are airplanes, etc. he described them the best he could with the vocabulary he had available. "Wrong God used symbols to stand for what WILL happen"-sp

hope that clears some stuff up for you, mr. az.[/B]

What exactly did you prove?


XA-spycatcher34

[This message has been edited by spycatcher34 (edited July 24, 2001).]

 

[Scrimshaw]

Let me take this one Stellar. You can add more later

See? believing in aliens' existance is incompatible with christianity.

This is what he was "trying to prove". I'd say he did a fair job. Similar to what I said 30 seconds prior (check the posts and times)

We're trying to say that the bible does not rule out the existence of life in space and may even tell about it, albiet cryptically.


[This message has been edited by Scrimshaw (edited July 25, 2001).]

 

[Az]

Woow!

Guys I didn't mean to insult anyone!

But why are you insulting me?

I'm not narrow minded and I don't take things literally.

Sorry if something sounded as an insult to you.

Stellar I don't think you read what I wrote well.

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[ComradeDavo]

can i just point out (yes i am an aethiest) that it is impossible for christian views on how god created the earth to be true. That is because the average christian beleives that god created the world within 7 days.
I could use the evouloution argument here but you would have heard it all before.
What proofs this creation did not happen is dinosaurs. Yep, you read that right, dinosaurs. And unless you wish to state that dinosaurs did not exist then you need to re-examine your views on how god created the earth. This is because as christians state that Humans were created on the 6th day of creation. Seeing how the earliest humans came at least 65 million years after the dinosuaurs this sounds a bit ridiculous. And also where do dinosaurs fit into the creation bit, eh? (this goes for all other creatures that lived and died before humans to)

Going back to the alien subject, yep i beleive in them. For a start there is actual NASA footage of ufo's flying near mars (or was it the moon, i can't remember) taken from on board one of their spacecraft. Then there's those foo fighters from WW2, try explaining them scientifically! Not to mention an actual alien body found fossilised in Peru! (if it wasn't alien then it was an earlier form of human life, it did look rather human like, so that proves evoluotion). And there's that off world predator on one of the dominic rebublic's islands. And also the alian technology being developed by the Nazi's towards the end of world war 2 (intersesting when you connect this with the increase of sightings and the roswell incedent after that peroid and the sharp improvements in US technology after this time). but anyway my point is that there can't be human explanations for everything that happens, aliens are bound to have visited sometime in the past. That or the theory that these sightings are actually humans from another dimension, makes you think doesn't it

And as for the seti programme, well thats debatable, but eventually i hope some sucess will come of it.
As for what will happen when aliens do eventually make contact, well as bizare as it sounds i reckon Futerama (you know, that cartoon by the guy who created the simpons) could actually be a pretty good view of the future

 

[spycatcher34]

You actually think your ancestor was an ape?I pity you.

 

[TheDuckOfFlanders]

Well i believe mankind originated from Apes.
Darwinism is my belief. (not christianity anymore)

Just on that Catholisism debate: If you compare the general scientif beliefs versus the catcholic beliefs you will come to the conclusion that the scientific beliefs can be proven and the catcholic's beliefs not.
Now for me that says something.
Though as catholic you can say that science is just illusion ,and that the bible is not to be taken siriously but symbolicly.But then the bible is absolutly not a reference.

I was a catholic for 10 years ,then i noticed that i didn't automaticly loved god but rather feard him.I did everything to be not a sinner. (Ohhh ,nooo ,Hell !!!)
I guess it's like that with most catholics. They believe because they fear that when they don't believe ,they will go to hell.

And to go back to the topic:
I don't believe in that Roswell ****.I think it's over-commercialized to make profit out of it.It's just an oppinion ,but i think if he Americans would have classified information about aliens the general public would never know about it.

But i do believe that aliens can (and will) be eaten by us.If there is an infinite universe ,then there are infinite alien species ,then there are infinte eatable alien species. (yummie)
The same for intelligent species.Though i think it always be in percentages.like on earth aprox 0.1% of the species are intelligent ,the same for the universe.

 

[dreadhead7]

I read somewhere that we live in a universe that contains roughly 1 trillion galaxies which themselves contain about 100 billion stars. Now, I would estimate conservatively, that about 10% of these stars would contain planetary systems, and that about 1% of these planets would be capable of bearing life. Of the planets capable of bearing life, I would imagine that about 1% of these would actually contain some life forms. That still would represent a vast number, and lends some support (statistically and logically, anyway) to the idea that there is life out there.
I believe that there is life on other worlds in our universe. I believe that most of these life forms are nonsentient. I would imagine that it would be analogous to bacteria, viruses, and small, multicellular creatures. I imagine that most of these life forms would be beyond our imagination or comprehension.
Of course, we're discussing sentient beings here, and whether they exist. I believe that these folks exist. My logic tells me that in the incredible vastness of the universe, surely, we are not the only intelligent species of life, nor are we the most advanced. That would be a colossal waste, IMHO, and simply because we don't see or take notice of something does not preclude it's existence.
I believe that most sentient, nonhuman civilizations would probably be either on par with our own, or slightly less advanced, though there may be civs that are slightly more advanced. I think that most folks who believe that other sentients exist believe that their culture and civilization is more advanced than ours.
If one believes that we have been visited, it certainly would be a highly advanced civ that could gather the technology and resources to undertake a journey that could take thousands of years. However, I don't think that highly advanced civs are the norm, and maybe that's why we haven't met any E.T.'s.
Now, I'm not a crackpot. I'm trying to approach this subject in an intelligent and logical manner. As for SETI, I think it's a worthwhile project. I imagine that even if we don't discover intelligent life in the universe in our lifetimes, something else of importance may be discovered. Who's to say!


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"Shake the world beneath your feet up"
--Johnny Clegg

 

[bvd]

Not only do we share lineage with anthropoids, but our ultimate precursor is stardust.

A STREAMLINED VERSION OF OUR LOCAL CORNER OF THE UNIVERSE'S HISTORY (SOLAR NEBULA HYPOTHESIS) :

A gravitational pull towards the material inside a rotating nebula causes a primordial cloud to form the shape of a flattened disk. Matter continues to migrate towards the center, forming a proto-Sun which collapses the nebula. This breakdown forms the solar system and a thermonuclear chain-reaction (fusion) that drastically increases the new star's temperature. Planetesimals cull to form the inner planets; disturbances in the residual planetary disk form the outer ones.

Five billion years ago, the Earth, much smaller than it is today, is augmented by the onslaught of Planetesimals and meteorites. Dense elements "sink" to beneath Earth's surface to form its liquid-iron core. The planet accrues an atmosphere of ammonia, hydrogen, methane, and water. With no ozone layer, the sun's rays roused this amalgamation to form amino acids and other organic compounds. They aggregate, and form the first cells (anyone care to enlighten me as to how genetic coding takes place?). We know of the first prokaryotic cells proliferating roughly 3.9 billion years ago.

These cells grow more complex, forming nuclei, dropping its complex cell wall in favor of tiny organelles and ultimately amassing to form multi-cellular life; the plant and animal kingdom is born. By the late Cenozoic (5 million years ago), we see these hominoids evolving into upright and ground-dwelling Miocene, the sole genus from which humans evolve. The first sapiens are seen in the form of the Neanderthal, circa 100,000 years ago, which die off 40,000 years ago with the influx of other sapiens like Cro-Magnon. The Neolithic Revolution, the introduction of farming settlements and domestication, ensured humanity's long term survival. Since then, Homo Sapiens have had a detrimental effect on the planet's ecology and threaten to destroy all of their progress.

GENESIS "THEORY":

The world - its features, oceans, life, etc. - was "created" and reckoned with in the matter of seven days.

Religious affiliation: Deist raised by Christians.

That set aside, I'd like to state that formulation using the Drake Constant, developed in the 1960's, has, with variables, calculated that perhaps a million sentient alien races with technological capability at or above our level exist in the Milky Way. Many doubt this, notwithstanding the galaxy's hundreds of billions of stars. If the SETI project ever contacts one of them, there is a 99.5% chance that they will be technologically and perhaps physically cognitively superior. Will they be friendly, willing to embrace humanity? We hope so ...

NOTE: All UFO discernment is either one or more of the following: erroneous observations, frauds, and delusions. It's dubious that any sentient aliens live nearby, that they have a humanlike physique, that possess starships that can penetrate our Oort cloud ...

NOTE: I haven’t bothered to spellcheck this bulky message; absolve me of all criticism.

 

[Magnus]

Do you ever wonder why space aliens and extra-terrestrial sightings do not appear in any sizeable number until the 1950's, when we were right on the verge of space flight? Think maybe there is a correlation there?

In my opinion its all hallucination, hysteria and (for some) wishful thinking.

 

[RedWolf]

I don't want to get involved in this debate. For the record I DO believe in the existence of extra-terrestrial life.

However I once heard a local Radio talk show host say something to support the other side of the debate which always makes me smile when i think about it so i decided to share.

He said:

"Ever wonder why, whenever a cop slaps someone in this city somebody gets a picture of it... yet nobody has ever managed to get a photo of an alien?"

 

[GenghisK]

You know what? I was watching Alien 2 yesterday on a British channel and finally now I look at darkness differently

Anyway. I'd rather trust scientists. They say indeed that we are a paradox. Mankind is a paradox since the probability of finding a planet with the adequate temperature, water, O2 and CO2, not too far/near a sun, etc... = 0.0000000000000000.....1 perhaps.

Now, since we exist, perhaps we are not alone. And if we have a 3rd encounter, they shouldn't be too aggressive. If they found the way to reach such a technologic exploit, they must be much more mature than humans. Perhaps, I'm watching too much sci-fi. At least one thing is quite sure. If there's life, it must be carbon based. Silicon has also 4 free external electrons but doesn't have carbon capabilities...

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[Brad]

Aliens..... Hmmmmmm, interesting question.... well, have you guys seen the "This is Me" Thread? Hahaha.
But I don't think Aliens exist... and why do people automatically think they would be smarter then us?

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Silence Fills the Nothingness......NERRRR!

Even though stuff happens that we don't plan, be a man... use you hand.

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[TheDuckOfFlanders]

From GenhisK:

They say indeed that we are a paradox. Mankind is a paradox since the probability of finding a planet with the adequate temperature, water, O2 and CO2, not too far/near a sun, etc... = 0.0000000000000000.....1 perhaps.

In 1997 some scientist discovered cave's in bulgaria that were tottaly closed of the rest of earth.The found small lifeforms living in conditions tottaly diferent from the rest of earth.The liveforms lived in a cave with an average 50° Celc. and no oxygen or light.Instead ,the liveforms lived on Acid.Yes Acid, that was the only energie they needed.So i don't think that a planet has to be that simelar to our earth for liveforms to live on it.

 

[bvd]

True; Silicon (Si) is too heavy and inert and, unlike Carbon (C), is solid at room temperature. Carbon was able to make organic compounds in a fluid state at low temperatures. They are of the same chemical group, however. Now! Off to work ...

 

[Iroquois]

Originally posted by Az:
Again it's wether you believe in the Bible or not. If you do then you believe everything not half of it. If you believe half of it it's like not believing at all as you miss some crucial points.

Az if you should go by everything the Bible says then let's see what that means...

Let's start with Leviticus 1:2- "Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, [even] of the herd, and of the flock." {/B]

Our priests that have sinned should most certainly be doing this according to Leviticus 4:3-6- "If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering.
And he shall bring the bullock unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD; and shall lay his hand upon the bullock's head, and kill the bullock before the LORD.
And the priest that is anointed shall take of the bullock's blood, and bring it to the tabernacle of the congregation:
And the priest shall dip his finger in the blood, and sprinkle of the blood seven times before the LORD, before the vail of the sanctuary."

And of course you should be a vegaterian according to Leviticus 3:17- [It shall be] a perpetual statute for your generations throughout all your dwellings, that ye eat neither fat nor blood.

And let's not forget to treat our slaves right since the Bible condones slavery: Leviticus 22:11 - but if a priest buys a slave as his property for money, the slave may eat of it; and those that are born in his house may eat of his food.

This is why I use the Bible as a guide for how I should live my life but I make my own choices and understandings instead of them being dictated by the Bible. It is a great book but you have to use your head when you read it. That's why God gave you brains.

edit: make easier to read and add summary.

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"I have brought the good tidings of Peace and Power from the Chief of the Sky Spirits to all people on earth. Bloodshed must cease in the land. The Good Spirit never intended that blood should flow between human beings. 'Yo-Hen. Yo-Hen." -De-ka-nah-wi-da

[This message has been edited by Iroquois (edited July 25, 2001).]