All Quiet on the Civ Front

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Yes, the Romans were notorious for their keen linguistic ears. :lol: I think the chief observation the Romans made about the Huns is that they were hordes of demons straight from Hell, which is very unhelpful in analyzing their language or ethnic identity. Unless we take it literally, in which case their ethnicity and language were infernal. :p
Again, all Eurasian steppe hordes were multiethnic; what they looked like is unhelpful in determining what they spoke.

I still doubt the Huns were originally Germanic speakers (unless Germanic languages existed in Central Asia). I'll accept that they were multi-ethnic.
 
Not to say that these concepts should be added blindly and without nuance. They should provide a situationally useful benefit (accelerated production for slavery, faith burst for sacrifices,
I think they were on the right track with the Aztecs UU and the Unique Ability, as it kind of ties in with faster production and slavery. And a faith burst for sacrifices is something I've been hoping the Maya would get anyway which with them it could be tied to science as well.
 
Dunno, maybe that's the teacher in me. These unfortunate parts of history *are* our history, whether we like it or not, and I believe the best approach to facing unpleasant truths is to tackle them head-on, rather than sanitize them out.

Especially when the whole thing is wrapped in a smelly, thick layer of hypocrisy. Past example: in Civ 4 you had Stalin, but Hitler was banned. Current example: Pedro II, portrayed as a Santa-like figure, lead the Brazilian Empire during the Triple Alliance War against Paraguay, which ended basically in genocide of the male Paraguayan population.

PC is bad. Hypocrisy is worse.

Hopefully, the recently announced Jomini new engine for future Paradox games brings some nasty surprise in the coming months or years... nasty for FXS, beautiful for us civvers...;)
 
Civ6 chose the wrong Izzy too, if you recall.

You mean the Civit leader chart spotted before the release of Civ6 in 2016?

I hope to see Isabella portrayed in a historically accurate manner with the proper hair color in a future Civ game.....
 
I like how CTP2 handled slavery. It basically added population to your cities, which had to be kept guarded against uprisings. And with later technologies other civs could stir them up against you. So slavery was a double edged sword. Nifty in the early game and slowly becoming more and more onerous until eventually you were almost forced to end it.
 
Assyria for instance rose to power, largely in thanks due to rounding up conquered ethnic minorities and "redistributing" them, as you could say, around their empire to speed up integration and pre-emptively quell uprisings.

The Incas did the exact same thing.

However, Firaxis might not want to portray concentration camps for obvious reasons.
 
I hope to see Isabella portrayed in a historically accurate manner with the proper hair color in a future Civ game...
If there's one thing Civ6 has taught us, it's that Firaxis can't do redheads or blonds. The one redhead we do have looks like he dunked his head in a bucket of Red 40. :lol:
 
Not to say that these concepts should be added blindly and without nuance. They should provide a situationally useful benefit (accelerated production for slavery, faith burst for sacrifices, lowered war weariness for social engineering/cleansings) but at a severe cost (massive diplomatic penalities for cleansings, unhappy citizens for sacrifices, lowered production, etc) especially in the end-game, similar to (but more extreme than) the Dark Age Policy Cards currently in the game.

Dunno, maybe that's the teacher in me. These unfortunate parts of history *are* our history, whether we like it or not, and I believe the best approach to facing unpleasant truths is to tackle them head-on, rather than sanitize them out.

But you aren't tackling them head on, you are, quite literally, playing with them. Civ may use the backdrop of history, but it most certainly is not history. And you are suggesting to add in some of the "unfortunate" (understatement of the century) parts as tools to manipulated and played with. Asking questions like "How do I min/max the chopping of forests" is one thing, but "How do I min/max the ethnic cleansing of a group of people" is something else entirely. Further, while leaving them out may make a few players annoyed since the game is not "fully historically accurate" (a goal never set out by the game itself), to add them in could make those who were/are impacted by those things extraordinarily hurt by treating them as simply strategic tools.

Their inclusion adds nothing for gameplay/strategy that can't be added via other means, and is thematically questionable, by allowing people to recreate some of the worst parts of the human experience "for fun".
 
If there's one thing Civ6 has taught us, it's that Firaxis can't do redheads or blonds. The one redhead we do have looks like he dunked his head in a bucket of Red 40. :lol:

Also that for some reason everyone in the past waxes their chests
 
But you aren't tackling them head on, you are, quite literally, playing with them. Civ may use the backdrop of history, but it most certainly is not history. And you are suggesting to add in some of the "unfortunate" (understatement of the century) parts as tools to manipulated and played with. Asking questions like "How do I min/max the chopping of forests" is one thing, but "How do I min/max the ethnic cleansing of a group of people" is something else entirely. Further, while leaving them out may make a few players annoyed since the game is not "fully historically accurate" (a goal never set out by the game itself), to add them in could make those who were/are impacted by those things extraordinarily hurt by treating them as simply strategic tools.

Their inclusion adds nothing for gameplay/strategy that can't be added via other means, and is thematically questionable, by allowing people to recreate some of the worst parts of the human experience "for fun".

But ten years ago, it was completely fine to have Stalin or slavery in the game. Currently, that's not okay anymore, because slavery is bad and evil leaders are evil. How much longer until we can no longer have any 17th or 18th century European leader because they (indirectly) participated in slavery? How much longer until we cannot portray conquerors like Genghis Khan (still hated in Iran btw) or Napoleon anymore? How much longer until we cannot portray leaders who used force of arms at all anymore? How much longer until Gandhi - without nukes - is the only leader that is still fine?

History isn't neat, it's ugly. This is a game, not reality.
 
But you aren't tackling them head on, you are, quite literally, playing with them. Civ may use the backdrop of history, but it most certainly is not history. And you are suggesting to add in some of the "unfortunate" (understatement of the century) parts as tools to manipulated and played with. Asking questions like "How do I min/max the chopping of forests" is one thing, but "How do I min/max the ethnic cleansing of a group of people" is something else entirely. Further, while leaving them out may make a few players annoyed since the game is not "fully historically accurate" (a goal never set out by the game itself), to add them in could make those who were/are impacted by those things extraordinarily hurt by treating them as simply strategic tools.

Their inclusion adds nothing for gameplay/strategy that can't be added via other means, and is thematically questionable, by allowing people to recreate some of the worst parts of the human experience "for fun".

That's what I meant "we shouldn't add them blindly and without nuance". In a good game, the decision whether or not to commit genocide should carry a lot emotional gravity and make the player reconsider what they're doing, as well as massive permanent longterm diplomatic penalties (the Armenians still haven't forgiven the Turks, nor will they ever, I think). It certainly should not be restricted to simply pushing a big red button and reaping some juicy benefits. That defeats the purpose of adding these mechanics in the first place.

Naturally, the game should also offer alternatives which have weaker short-term but better long-term benefits. (e.g.: the Egyptians did not use slaves when building their Pyramids, but paid workers). Civ 6 has government policy cards; this would be a great way to implement these mechanics. I personally believe the Goverment Policy System is a bit too shallow, but if it were expanded into more categories (Religious, Cultural, Educational, Industrial, Economic, Militaristic, Touristic, Diplomatic, Social, Ethical,... +1 Wild Card), then it keeps the players' options open. If Civ 6 really is about conscious decision-making, it is something Firaxis should consider.

Personally, I'm already happy with if Slavery and Human Sacrifices can be added, preferably under the same "kill population for production burst" mechanic we've seen in Civ4. Social Engineering can be restricted to Civ abilities (the Devshirme System for the Ottomans, for instance, and Assyria of course.). Ethnic cleansings are already part of the game, though in a very basic form (where do the people in razed cities go, you think?) and I'm fine with it remaining that way.
 
The game currently represents slavery, genocide and all those other ugly parts perfectly well. All those elements are just implicit.

I honestly just don’t see what upside there is to separating out these ugly elements and giving them specific mechanics. I can’t see it adding flavour or strategic depth.

I’m not saying Civ should “ignore” these issues. Instead, what I’m saying is making these things specific game mechanics is just incredibly reductive.
 
The first goal of civ VI is to be fun, history comes later in the process. Slavery would be something to add to have more fun in the game?

Denying the existence of slavery isn't going to take away the fact that it happened (and, by the way, still happens in some areas of the world). Making it a - questionable - choice in a historical video game would certainly not do less, and may do much more if it's well-implemented. If slavery is something that comes with production advantages (because, let's be real, it did in the real world) but diplomatic and stability disadvantages, it will make people think about it, and understand better both why it was(/is) wrong, but also why it was used. I would say that such understanding is perhaps the most essential part of improving yourself and society.
 
I just don't care about about history, if I want to learn something I'm just reading some books.

The only important thing is to make the game better when you add something. If you can find a way where adding slavery will make the game better to play, more fun, I'll just gonna say: then, add it. But if it is add it, for... Add it, cause it is a part of humanity, it is just stupid and you should think a little to what a game is.

So, my question was a real question, just when they add something they NEED to improve the game, it is not adding stuff for adding stuff. Even if civilization is a game where you have war and even nuclear ones, it is still something 'fun' you don't see people suffering and even nuclear one is not something horrible which is killing peoples during generations. It is a 'game' a pretty nice one. So if you want to add something like slavery, why not, but you need to do it with the idea of improving the game not with the stupid argument 'it is a part of humanity'.
 
The only important thing is to make the game better when you add something. If you can find a way where adding slavery will make the game better to play, more fun, I'll just gonna say: then, add it. But if it is add it, for... Add it, cause it is a part of humanity, it is just stupid and you should think a little to what a game is.

I don't play Civ because it's such a brilliant TBS game; if I want a good TBS I'll play some Age of Wonders or something. I play Civilization because it allows me to play through our own history. That alone is more than enough reason for me.
 
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