Almost Newbie proposes PTW PBEM Alpha

[Yakodi]

Yes, this is a game. But it must be allowed to discuss about the way of playing it? It's my very personal point of view that it's not good to make civ a wargame.

Trying to take back the move shows that you even yourself seem not to be happy about the situation?

Have a look at your military advisor and you know whether you have to fear a neighbour or not! What do you think should be a reason for a weak nation like the Iroquois to attack such a monster-nation like the English?
At least after taking the first cities you knew definitly about the Iroquois weakness. But you still continued destroying the peaceful nation. I'm asking again: what is satisfying in this?

Seeing there is no chance at all the best thing to do in my eyes is quitting the game at this point. I did decide not to do this for some reasons ...

But now there is the question: What to do to keep a game going that I don't like any longer? Must I even make moves I'm not intendig to do?

 

[bathsheba666]

It's my very personal point of view that it's not good to make civ a wargame.

Then you should have made this very clear before the game began.

Bringing a hidden agenda to a game, then speculating about quitting because you haven't got your own hidden way, is a waste of your own time, as well as everyone else's.

If the agenda is published in advance, then it is no longer hidden, and if everyone agrees, then everyone's expectations are clear. And you can then rely on achieving your ideal.

If the agenda is not published then you have to rely on your diplomacy.
And we agreed the slate was wiped clean on that previously.
So I, naturally, was left to take a view on the likely significance and possible outcomes of your change of direction.
And the likely timings associated with these outcomes.
With the results you see.



For whatever it is worth, I do not particularly enjoy Eta either, for very similar reasons.
However, when my capital was razed, I indulged in the usual thread wibble about the Carthaginian barbarians, built an army, then got my revenge within the game. It's not clear to me why this should be significantly different.

 

[Yakodi]

You don't understand what I'm meaning. And that will be due to my bad English. Sorry. Let's try it again.

There's no hidden agenda or something like that. Everyone is allowed to be as barbarian as he likes! The point I'm thinking about is whether it's good to play the game the militaristic way, because this will reduce the game to very early battles and not to a game of civilised development.
I fear most of the players are going the barbarian way.
These are general thoughts. I like to play civilization and I like to play PBEM. But I fear I don't like to play civilization-PBEM. And I'm just trying to find out by discussing.

On the other hand there is the special situation in Alpha. You have beaten me a long - a very long - time ago, both at military strength and at scientific research. At this point I would not go on a destruction campaign and I just want to know what is giving you satisfaction in this?

 

[Yakodi]

Getting no answer I had to make moves I didn't want to make, only to keep the game going.

gps

 

[Yakodi]

No save, so there's time for more stupid words.

For whatever it is worth, I do not particularly enjoy Eta either, for very similar reasons.
However, when my capital was razed, I indulged in the usual thread wibble about the Carthaginian barbarians, built an army, then got my revenge within the game. It's not clear to me why this should be significantly different.

From my point of view the situations in Alpha and Eta are totally different.
The Vikiungs and the Carthaginians were neighbours at the start and they didn't manage to live in peace. For whatever reasons?
This would be bad to both of them when the others could avoid war.
And as you have prooved it was the wrong decision of the Carthaginians anyway (assuming that they started the war)!

In Alpha I did everything to live in peace with my English neighbour and as reward I have to face total destruction. I don't understand this and I just want to know what is your fun in doing this?

 

[bathsheba666]

It's certainly an odd sensation. But, I don't know that 'fun' describes it.

I guess, in the apparent absence of troops, diplomatic guilt is your best defence.
But I feel that to show any weakness here, would be a mistake.

As, essentially, any retribution I deserve for this, I've already earned, and it's probably already coming.

The only thing I will never really know, but just suspect , is that it was already on the way, in which case my timing was ok. That is always the problem with 'getting your retaliation in first'.

 

[GreyBeard]

Meanwhile, in our little corner of the world, the Mongols do a little trading and try to catch up with the rest of the civs.

gps -----> WVCivnut

 

[Yakodi]

I'm sorry I have to be annoying again.
Please look at the picture and tell me what to do.

There are masses of English troops ready for taking Grand River and the city is not able to defend this sucessfully. As the inhabitants have told me they don't want to become English slaves I want to give up the city. But as soon as I try to do so the game is crashing because I'm loosing my silks and these silks are involved in trades with other civs.
This is the same problem I told you last round and it's a problem I've seen in PTW-PBEMS before.

So please give me your suggestions what to do in this situation.

 

[bathsheba666]

Thinking purely in terms of avoiding a crash....

Declare war on the civs you are trading with.
Then abandon your city.
Then offer peace again.

I guess in this situation
- the humans will understand???
- the ai is too far away to be concerned with?


---


Alternatively,
- assuming your strategy of raze and retreat is being maintained -
You can empty the city, retreat south.
I will pillage the roads on these squares, but not take Grand River.
You can then abandon it the following turn.


---

Also, what exactly is the problem you've seen before in ptw-pbems?
Abandoning cities, cancelling trade deals, or just crashes in general?
Were any fixes available? or once the game is corrupt, it's stuffed?

If you waited until the trade deal expired, then did not renew, how long would that take?

 

[Yakodi]

The problems I've seen before always were crashes when existing trade deals were destroyed. And I don't know of any solutions - the games were dead at that point.

When I will empty the city I think the game will crash as soon as you will pillage the roads because I'm loosing the silk-deals then. But we could test it, just for academical reasons.
I haven't testet the "war-solution" fo far because I was waiting on other suggestions. But I will try that one too.

 

[bathsheba666]

So, at last, a good reason to be a pacifist...
- the game cannot finish if war happens.

Is this correct? Do any ptw-pbems finish then?
Or do they all have to be abandoned?

Or, not all have a problem with trade deals being destroyed?

 

[Yakodi]

I don't know if all PTW-PBEMS have to be cancled, but I have seen this problem more than once.
Of course not every game has the problem of destroyed trading deals.

I've tried the "war-solution" now, and it doesn't work. I'm not able to declare war on the human, the game is crashing as soon as I'm trying to look at the existing trading deals.
So at least it's not only a problem of destroying.

 

[bathsheba666]

I assume that since the game was not crashing until a few turns ago,,
we could go back over the last few saves, and see at what point the corruption crept in.

I guess the obvious start point is the turn before Yakodi noticed it.

I guess this could be tested by pillaging all resources and checking the diplo screens, and seeing if a crash occurs. If ok and no crash, we could continue from this point.

Let me know if you are up for this.

 

[GreyBeard]

I assumed this game was dead and deleted my sav.files. I am willing to try and revive it if Yakodi is.
I still don't understand what the problem was. I have played numerous games against the AI to completion and 2 Epic email games to completion and never had any problems.

 

[Yakodi]

The way I'm looking at the PBEM-Forum didn't let me notice the revival of this thread.
After getting a mail from bathsheba today (nice to see you back in the real real life ...) replayed some old saves and so it seems the first point where corruption appears is in 1060. In 1050 I can delete all my silks without something happening. Doing the same in 1060 the game crashes.

Well, as I told before, I've seen such things in PTW-PBEMs before, so it seems to be a known bug. And I fear we will face it again when repeating. I played 1060 twice today and changed in not accepting a deal that was offered to me this year. But the game crashes too. So I think it will do so in every constellation. And further on there is to say I don't like to play another way I wanted to do just in order to save the game.
So, to be honest, I have to say I'm not very much interested in continuing this game.

On the other hand this group was nice because of the daily moves. So perhaps it would be a good idea to start a new game? Your choice: C3c or Civ4 - I think we shouldn't give PTW another chance because of this bug.

 

[bathsheba666]

This game is being rewound to avoid

a) war

b) corruption that crept in previously


Chinese and/or Iroquois will need replacing.

 

[bathsheba666]

The English theories of self conduct evolve, and we continue to develop peacefully.

We resolve not to attack non-ai tribes, for as long as we continue to not see them gathering outside our borders.

 

[GreyBeard]

The sav.file for the next turn has been attached.

 

[Yakodi]

I have to say I am surprised!
What is the sense in this? What do you have to proove?

Saying I'm not much interested in continuing this game does not mean I'm not playing if the game is going on!

So what about WVCivnut? Did you ask him too? Is he interested in continuing? Or did you find a victim for replacing already?

 

[bathsheba666]

I have to say I am surprised!

?

What is the sense in this?
What do you have to proove?

Not sure about the answer to either of these questions.
But neither question had occurred to me.
I was thinking more in terms of finishing the game.

Saying I'm not much interested in continuing this game does not mean I'm not playing if the game is going on!

What is the sense in this?
What do you have to prove?

So what about WVCivnut?
Did you ask him too?
Is he interested in continuing?

Yes, I asked both of you about resuming. Both of you said no.

Or did you find a victim for replacing already?

No. But now I am advertising.

victim

Interesting choice of words.
Are you really sure you want to continue, in a positive spirit?