Alternate Tech Tree Development

[TheJopa]

I simply don't see point in changing things right now. When you do make playable tech tree, fire will come out and you will need to redesign everything again, and no one will be able to play with what you have made. Units, wonders, religions will be rebalanced, new stuff added to current techs, so you are simply wasting time, with modding right now. You should wait 10 more days instead.


I personally mooded tech tree for myself, but in way that I altered tech costs (Mounted branch, feudalism were cheaper) and I moved few units, buildings and civics (Prophets and pagan temples came earlier and prophets were much cheaper, so they had use)

 

[vyapti]

I imagine Prophets will become useful again if AV is used more, since AV prophets can't squash a rebellion.

 

[Yoshi2942]

I actually don't like prophets because of a bad taste they left in my mouth one game which I decided to conquer my "friend" with Culture because I didn't want to declare war and make all of his friends mad at me. I had about 8 cities, my 3 main cities I devoted to popping out prophets, 2 turns each approximately.. and about 30 turns later I had absorbed 3 major cities - including the capital; purely from prophets being use at 1 population settlements (playing as Frodo).. I decided right then that they were abnoxiously powerful for the player to use - and the AI never uses them, so I haven't built one since.


As to "why change it because you may end up changing it again in 2 weeks?": Mostly it is a goal of teaching myself HOW to mod this game. I would never have even found FFH if I didn't see something in Vanilla that I didn't like and come onto the website looking for a way to make a very simple change.. stumbled across FFH, and haven't looked back at Vanilla.

But as a note for anyone who cares - I added back in Mal Designs and Orders from heaven, they now fall right past priesthood and require the respective religeons and Arcane Lore. I placed a few of the High level units and such into these Techs as there didn't seem to be any better place to put the units.

With some of the most recent information regarding FIRE which has come out, it is apparant that I will be making a few changes to my tree (dropping Armaggedon), but to be honest, I don't actually think that a new version means that my work on the tree will be lost. Besides, the tree that I have posted in this thread is a LOT better than the original one.. atleast in my opinion. I had never even known that Barbarians build Ogres before using this tree. All the AI civs shoot for the religeons early, and all of the AI civs get Macemen fairly early and by turn 100 have a few macemen, few archers, and a mage at pretty much every city. Getting the AI to develop in such a manner is one of the main goals of this tech tree. So to everone who doesn't like the way my tree looks? That's fine, I didn't upload my tree. I just put a picture. I don't expect anyone to want to try my tree - and that is perfectly fine. As I have said previously, the purpose in this thread is to get perspectives regarding various points of view which I may not have.


EDIT --Joppa, from Croatia? What part? I have a friend who is studying there for a year, and I went to school with some chic from Croatia. Happen to know anyone by the name of Matae who went to the US on a basketball scholarship? or anyone by the name of Jessica who is studying in Croatia and loves to get drunk?

 

[TheJopa]

Dalmatia (South, seaside). Unfortunately I dont know them, as small as Croatia is, it still has 4.5 million people. But we have lots of girls who like to get drunk

 

[Silverkiss]

Macemen can still be built by anyone, they require Iron Working - or something like that.

I didn´t say that, I said it was like doing it.

 

[QES]

I didn´t say that, I said it was like doing it.

Sort of like how Velveeta is like cheese?
-Qes

 

[Yoshi2942]

Silver, you definately seem to have something against my tree - or maybe it is me - but from post one you have been attacking my design, or my comments, or both. As for my missing the word "like" in your comment, oops. But I suppose the word like is absolutely appropriate.

Here is an update though - I played as the Elohim (sp?) about 400 turns - mostly wanted to see what the monks were all about and whether I needed to do anything to ensure that they'd be available regardless of what Religeon was chosen. After seeing just how great they are - not a chance that I'll move them. As it is, I was able to get them fairly quickly and could send them out to scout the entire map - was about 200 turns before any units were on the board that could kill them one-on-one. 6 strength, 3 move units that gain experience pretty quickly are nothing to sneeze at - especially when others are building 4/1 or 3/3 units at the same time.

 

[Silverkiss]

Sorry if my posts seem to be attacking you, I was just trying to say what I don´t think is good in your tech tree.... I have nothing against it or against you...

Well, commenting on what you said, I think your Tech Tree may be too much fast. You said AI get macemen before turn 100.... You getting monks early enough to use them to scout, etc... I think its too early...

 

[Yoshi2942]

You may very well be right about some aspects of it being too fast - I have decided that I needed to push a few things back, just haven't seen how to do it yet. After playing about a dozen games with this tech tree (most of which I only played until turn 200 or so, primarily to get a feel of how things felt from various perspectives - using different leaders, and going for different religeons) -- I've found that if I decide at the outset of the game which Religeon I wish to start - I not only have to beeline to the religeon, I have to set my opening city to maximize coins and forgo hammers in order to beat out the computer often times.


In vanilla CIV IV - the computer would oftentimes beat me to one or more of the religeons which I would go for, but because it didn't really matter what religeon you got, if the computer beat me to bud, I could switch to hindu.. but in FFH, the religeons are important - so if a computer snags the religeon which I wanted to start - then either I have to choose a backup religeon (and therefore backup path), or stubbornly explore and hope that the religeon of choice spreads to my lands... meh.

I wonder how hard it would be to change ... something, I don't even know what... so that if you researched a tech that would start a religeon - but someone else already started that religeon - it would still auto spread that religeon to your lands, you just wouldn't get the holy city?

Either way though - I will probably play a few games at a slower game speed and see what that does - I've been playing on Standard, which is pretty fast in Vanilla CIV IV, but in Vanilla FFH, I found that anything slower than Standard was waaay too slow for me.

 

[eerr]

You may very well be right about some aspects of it being too fast - I have decided that I needed to push a few things back, just haven't seen how to do it yet. After playing about a dozen games with this tech tree (most of which I only played until turn 200 or so, primarily to get a feel of how things felt from various perspectives - using different leaders, and going for different religeons) -- I've found that if I decide at the outset of the game which Religeon I wish to start - I not only have to beeline to the religeon, I have to set my opening city to maximize coins and forgo hammers in order to beat out the computer often times.


In vanilla CIV IV - the computer would oftentimes beat me to one or more of the religeons which I would go for, but because it didn't really matter what religeon you got, if the computer beat me to bud, I could switch to hindu.. but in FFH, the religeons are important - so if a computer snags the religeon which I wanted to start - then either I have to choose a backup religeon (and therefore backup path), or stubbornly explore and hope that the religeon of choice spreads to my lands... meh.

I wonder how hard it would be to change ... something, I don't even know what... so that if you researched a tech that would start a religeon - but someone else already started that religeon - it would still auto spread that religeon to your lands, you just wouldn't get the holy city?

Either way though - I will probably play a few games at a slower game speed and see what that does - I've been playing on Standard, which is pretty fast in Vanilla CIV IV, but in Vanilla FFH, I found that anything slower than Standard was waaay too slow for me.

I wonder how hard it would be to change ... something, I don't even know what... so that if you researched a tech that would start a religeon - but someone else already started that religeon - it would still auto spread that religeon to your lands, you just wouldn't get the holy city?

maybe if its possible to remove the "awards a free x religious unit for the first to discover?(remove the first "requirement" part so you always get a free unit)

 

[Nikis-Knight]

I wonder how hard it would be to change ... something, I don't even know what... so that if you researched a tech that would start a religeon - but someone else already started that religeon - it would still auto spread that religeon to your lands, you just wouldn't get the holy city?

Don't sweat it, wait for Fire.

 

[Yoshi2942]

Hmm, very cryptic there Nikis (by the way, I'm in SoCal too: for what it's worth) - but sounds promising.

Anyways, I made some changes to my tree: I'll play a game or two with it before posting an image of the updated tree (it is basically the same, but I pushed back most of the religeons, made a few minor And requirement changes, added a few techs in, and shuffled the location of a couple techs - minor changes mostly.) Expect the new tree - assuming that I feel that it is an improvement over the current tree - tomorrow.

 

[MrUnderhill]

Don't sweat it, wait for Fire.

Let me guess; getting a religious tech gives you a disciple of that religion, regardless of how many other folks have gotten it before?

 

[Kael]

Let me guess; getting a religious tech gives you a disciple of that religion, regardless of how many other folks have gotten it before?

ding ding ding

 

[QES]

ding ding ding

...went the trolly.
Clang Clang Clang went the bell.
-Qes

 

[Chandrasekhar]

ding ding ding

I count this as very, very good news. Not that I'm likely to take advantage of it, but the AI sure is.

 

[Yoshi2942]

I agree - the AI will certainly be able to take advantage of this - and when I was musing my thoughts earlier - it didn't occur to me that the issue may have already been looked at/addressed. Very glad that it was, and probably even more glad that you all chirped up to let us know that it was - otherwise I almost certainly would have spent a bit of time coming up with/implementing a "fix" on my own (and it probably would have been something a LOT more complex than simply giving a priest).

By the way, my newly editted tree is working out better - atleast in so far as the Religeons are concerned, each religeon, except Dragon, is the third in a line for civs that don't start with a Tech that helps... and in game they show up turns 40-80 as opposed to the 20-60 that I had before... which is more appropriate in my mind, early enough to develop a strat around - but late enough that you can sidetrack for an early tech if you want to and still have a good shot at getting the religeon of choice.

 

[Gamestation]

Let me guess; getting a religious tech gives you a disciple of that religion, regardless of how many other folks have gotten it before?

Good, no more seeing the Khazad (who in my games are just plain pathetic due to their strange refusal to build new cities) trying to research Way of the Earthmother only to realize after they finished researching it that someone else founded RoK about 200 years back and thus they can not get the religion as easily.

 

[QES]

Dalmatia (South, seaside). Unfortunately I dont know them, as small as Croatia is, it still has 4.5 million people. But we have lots of girls who like to get drunk

Well, that is the prerequisite for any good tourist destination. If you advertised in america, you'd be surprized at the upsurge in tourism, im quite certain.

Mexico has been advertising the like for years - though they advertise Drunk, Easy American girls, who merely lose their inhibitions across the boarder.

Spring Break - Hedonism 101.
-Qes

 

[Yoshi2942]

Ok, in an effort to bring this thread back on subject. Here is my editted Tech Tree.

I added a handful of techs back in, and shuffled a lot of the buildings/units/whatever around - Still need to do more in that area (units
and Civics mostly)..


Playwise - I find that the AI too frequently researches multiple religeons using this tree; but on the other hand, the AI doesn't research
all four schools of magic and has no problem reaching Arch-mages before I can.

Spoiler :

As you can see, this image was captured from a Game in progress. I'm running in 4th place - far behind first place, but it is possible to
catch 2nd and 3rd places. I have very good relations with 1st and 2nd places - so I am hoping to get to Honor (which allows for Perm
Alliances in my game). Atleast 3 other Civs have Arcane lore, Education, and Philosophy - none of which I have researched. But my
homeland is huge, completely covered in forests, playing as Frodo+WayofLeaves, with 5-6 Treants running around (plus whatever appears
from the forests). It is turn 565 in an Epic game on a Large map with 12 Civs (one of which I haven't contacted yet).

Oh, and before anyone comments on MY researching all four schools of magic - I didn't. The ones that I didn't research were given to me
in tech trades, same with horseback riding, archery, and a few others.