Alternates to worker-chop?

[UberCivver]

There seems to be a lot of people gravitating to (let's just call it mine for ego's sake, haha) worker-chop strategy for beginning a game in order to get to 3 cities and one of the religions first.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=135748

I was just wondering if there are any other viable strategies out there that either a)give a boost in the beginning or b)guarantee a strong start.

Thanks again to everyone who commented/discussed my strategy!
-Ubercivver

 

[Jroc]

Hrm, I actually didn't know about this worker chop strategy.. and I still don't knwo what it is..

As for the religion.. I did my best NOT to develop a religion..

In my first game that im playing, im still #1 in points, and i rule about 50% of my continent, having wiped out the japanese, an dmost of the Russians, and now moving on to the Chinese soon.

So, I dont think any 1 strategy is best?

Maybe its about action and reaction, being able to judge your enemies, and doing what will work best against them

 

[UberCivver]

Oh don't get me wrong, I totally agree, it is all about reacting to your surroundings, I think I am just too stuck in my ways already to try anything different than my worker chop strategy. Read the thread that is linked for info on it.
-UberCivver

 

[dh_epic]

Worker chopping is a smart idea early on. It's only a question of how early. And it's a question of whether you use it to found cities, build wonders, or pump out a military.

Sometimes I start with bronze working and go straight to chopping. Sometimes I need to found a religion before. Other times I discover horse archers first.

Many approaches work. And keep in mind that pumping out three quick settlers is not the be all and end all.

 

[EridanMan]

I've put up a preliminary worker chop "Guide"

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=138682

I firmly believe that the worker-bronze working push early in the game is the BEST opening move in most cases - but its just that - and opener- where you go from there depends highly on your situation:

The main reason I say this is because the extra production speed provided by an early worker (whether chopping or improving the city) exponentially more valuable every turn you manage to get it out there sooner- why? because it builds on itself. Getting that worker out there to build the farm on your nearby food - and from every turn after that your city will grow faster - get those early cities out - and you'll have a 2:1 production advantage on the other guys who just have one crappy city- Now, the actually boost of 45 sheilds, or a couple food per turn is very small, and very quickly nullified as the game progresses - but an early 2 or 3:1 production advantage, if capitalized on, can be used to establish yourself in a dominating game position that you can use to get a later religion/tech/whatever you want...

I.E, the advantage of working-pushing is most pronounced early in the game, so that's where you should do it to maximize the advantage.

It is _NOT_ and end-all and be-all route to victory- and in fact, how to capitalize on those early shields/production requires a lot of individual-game planning and strategy... But that's what makes it fun.

IMHO at least

 

[UberCivver]

Eridanman,
Thanks for the post, but the topic of worker-chop has been discussed in the thread I linked above. I know how well it works, I was one of the first to post the strategy, I am just looking for alternatives to it, that's all. Actually, a counter to it in multiplayer would be a plus.
-UberCivver

edit: didn't mean to come off as a little standoff-ish, I just have been using the worker chop since day one and already know tons about it, I just want some other strategies. sorry

 

[Phyr_Negator]

Worchop is powerful but got weaknesses, especially early vulnerability. Maybe that one will show more advantages.

 

[Dairuka]

The biggest weakness to Chop Rush strategies are the Workers.

If you're lucky enough to start beside the unlucky person, and have a warrior in your possession while you're exploring. Just move close to their worker. Declare war. Kill/Steal their worker. If they're dumb enough to explore with their warrior, or started as an expansionist civilization - Take their city before they can make a Warrior. It's very situational, but I've done it to somebody in MP before.

Chop Rush is a Gamble in Multiplayer. It works very well most of the time; but with the right peice in the right place, you've got no chance of survival.

 

[EridanMan]

Eridanman,
Thanks for the post, but the topic of worker-chop has been discussed in the thread I linked above. I know how well it works, I was one of the first to post the strategy, I am just looking for alternatives to it, that's all. Actually, a counter to it in multiplayer would be a plus.
-UberCivver

edit: didn't mean to come off as a little standoff-ish, I just have been using the worker chop since day one and already know tons about it, I just want some other strategies. sorry

Sorry, I should have read closer before posting

My basic point is just that 'worchop' is not a full game 'identity-strategy' so to speak- I.E, its just one tiny part - a first step that you utilize to speed you along to whatever other strategy you choose to play.

But I do believe that, initially, the flexibility of getting that first worker out there ASAP is (almost) always worth it... its all about maximizing production asap- and using that to do what you want to do.

BTW, no offense taken - Thanks for the response

 

[Astax]

I almost never worker chop. I almost always go for all 3 early religions, then catch up with organized religion on development while my opponent usualyl has none :/ I played agianst people who must have used somethign simular to the chopping strategy, but I thrashed them throughly. After religion I get whatever I need to get the nearby resources and make sure i plant a few river/cottages as I play financial.

Regardless of your starting strategy thou the game alows for you to catch up, even better it doesnt seem to favor one strategy over the next. People expandign fast usually skimp on military so a sudden attack before they are ready is your best bet. Game usually comes down to the time you meet your opponent and what resources who is controlling at the time. In a game where you have no horses and no iron you do best to postpone any war till gunpowder units. Just to note you cant postpone real people, you can only hope the meeting happens at a time most favorible to you. Also it helps when the random number generator takes a dump and you roll the same tiny map for the 5th time, no joke :/

 

[Dairuka]

Fast expansion in MP isn't wise.

If I was going to use my Chopper, I'd chop-rush some military units to guard my chopper first. =P

 

[EridanMan]

Dairuka - exactly... one chop gets you 2 warriors in 5 or 6 turns (thanks to residual shields) - so even if your playing a defensive game, chopping doesn't mean your expanding recklessly.

Now - the one place where this strategy DOES put you behind is in religion - I usually don't get religion until Taoism...

But, frankly - I don't play a religion game - and I've never missed (yet) the religion advantages - give me solid early production and I'll build you an empire that will make up for all of the advantages of religion.

 

[Dairuka]

Chopping military units will most of the time leave you without enough forests left over to get a Settler, or Wonder out.

Usually when I'm done chop-rushing my forge, I'm tapped out. If I expend a few forests on an archer or two to defend my worker, I usually don't have enough to rush it. Which is actually very crucial to my early research & production lead strategy.

Later on when you have no forests; you don't get the lumbermill bonuses, nor do you get the health & happiness bonuses from enviromentalism.

It's all about Prioritizing and adapting. The Chop Rush strategy can hurt you later on if not used wisely.

 

[EridanMan]

Hmm, I've never actually chop-rushed a forge - I've usually stopped chopping at that point-

Litterally, I use chopping only for the first ten or so units in the game - just enough to get 'out there' and my empire building healthy (workers) and defended (warriors/archers), after that, I'll just use good old fashioned elbo-grease to build up those cities- counting on the fact that I have more cities than my oponent to give me the leg-up in later confrontations...

Having 3 reasonable (2-3 size) early cities turning out chariots will very quickly overwhealm your opponents when they're still just getting their second city out (especially if they're just getting archers)... once I'm eastablished, I'm golden.

Now - Granted - so far, all the big games I've played I started basically in the middle of a huge forest - so I've had plenty of resources to tap and 'charge myself up' so to speak... We'll see if I can handle starting in a mid-lattitude jungle...

But I'd probably be screwed.

 

[Dairuka]

90% of the starts I've had on a Standard Sized Map, with a Temperate climate, have been by a flood plains, with around 4-5 forests around. Not much to work with, even as my culture spreads out the borders across another 1-2 forests.

My strategy revolves around chop-rushing/pop-rushing Libraries and Forges, so it's pretty crucial that I have enough forests, otherwise I gotta break out the whip.

I hate breaking out the whip; theres never enough latex clad-women to put the whip to proper use. Wheres Catherine when you need her? Oh yeah; I haven't explored that far on the world map yet.

 

[EridanMan]

Hehe-

I've actually never pop-rushed anything... I should look into that.

But you seem to carry the wor-chop deal further than I do -

FYI, you do know that forests chopped outside your cultural boundaries still give you the production boost - right? (granted, its lessoned somewhat, but that seems to have more to do with distance than with in/out of culture boundary... close forests are worth 45 (anything in the city radius), one out from the city radius and further is worth ~30 (IIRC).

Oh, and I think rushing a forge is actually a really good idea - (more production sooner = more total production in the grand scheme of things)... I would probably try to stick with pop-rushing my forges though...

Or maybe shoot for piramids (sp) and spend some of that early-game gold?

 

[Dairuka]

I've noticed that too Eridan, the problem with doing that is the pre-barbarian Animals with 2 movement sneaking in and magically killing your warrior escort and your worker off. =(

I'm currently working on a screen-shot based starting FAQ for singleplayered Monarch-Immortal games, that involves a fairly straight forward beelining for certain techonlogies, and the helpful functions known as Pop-Rushing and Chop-Rushing.

It involves beelining for Writing/Alphabet, then Priesthood to rush the Oracle in your main city for the free Metal Casting research; and then Pyramids in your secondary city for Representation. Well... it sounds confusing now as I left out alot; but when it's done you'll get the jist of it.

BTW. Chop-Rush = easier to type than Wor-Chop Deal.

 

[Phyr_Negator]

Most powerful is Chopoprush! None can stand it=D

 

[damxam]

I've noticed that too Eridan, the problem with doing that is the pre-barbarian Animals with 2 movement sneaking in and magically killing your warrior escort and your worker off. =(

Animals don't enter your cultural borders so your worker must have strayed too far from home.

 

[dh_epic]

The horse archer rush is a strong start.
Also, having a religious super city (with three religions founded) can be a powerful start too.
The jaguar rush is killer with the aztecs, if you know how to use it.

I find these to be great alternatives to a settler rush.