Always Worker First?

[huerfanista]

OhioAstronomy's Optimum Early Growth thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=154872

 

[Il Corvo Bianco]

What level/settings are you playing? Non-animal barbarians usually take a while to show up. Certainly enough time to build a worker and hopefully chop - for settlers, units, or if nothing else, to give the barbarians fewer forests to hide in.

I play on warlord. Noble is still way too hard, even if I win most of the time on warlord. Barbarians show up about at tenth turn, even if on little groups. Problem is: a worker takes around 10-15 turns at level 1, 7-8 if you are on a good spot...by the time you build the worker, city hasn't grown yet, so it takes another 5-10 turns to make only a warrior, archers can take up to 25 turns...
So, warrior-barrack-archer-worker-archer-worker-archer-granary/walls/lighthouse-settler.
And so on...

 

[Trynthlas]

I play on warlord. Noble is still way too hard, even if I win most of the time on warlord. Barbarians show up about at tenth turn, even if on little groups. Problem is: a worker takes around 10-15 turns at level 1, 7-8 if you are on a good spot...by the time you build the worker, city hasn't grown yet, so it takes another 5-10 turns to make only a warrior, archers can take up to 25 turns...
So, warrior-barrack-archer-worker-archer-worker-archer-granary/walls/lighthouse-settler.
And so on...

Animal barbarians won't enter your city's cultural borders, so you really don't need a warrior that early, and a barracks before a worker is definitely a bad idea!

Generally I will build worker first, unless he would have nothing to work on due to lack of techs for the local resources. In that case, it's usually a warrior or two.

 

[Angst]

normally I do.

 

[Innawerkz]

Even on a double seafood start, I'd go workboat-workboat-worker-settler, since by the the time I've built both workboats and the worker I've surely got bronze working, and can chop some forest to get the settler out almost as fast as if I'd built it straight away.

I've never crunched the numbers, but this always seems like the strongest opening to me. The first work boat allows me to grow to size 2, second work boat often can get me to size three just in time to whip it, finish the boat and have some hammers carry over to the Worker. Whip my worker as soon as possible.

I'll build a Warrior/Archer at this point to grow to size 2 in my city and move it to fortify where my 2nd city is going to be. My worker will start chopping for the first Settler. 2 Seafood, a Chop & a whip can get a Settler out VERY quickly.

Build another warrior/archer, get to size 2, chop & whip out another settler. Three cities very quickly with a defender.

 

[twocan7]

This brings up a question for me. I just started a new game and my workers had no useful techs. I built three warriors while I was waiting on my techs then created a worker and then whipped three settlers. Is this a bad idea? noble/vanilla/ghegis khan/large/epic

 

[Benford's Law]

@twocan7 - If you can, it would be best to post a screenshot of your 4000 BC save to see exactly what situation you are in before anyone can give you a good answer.
Even without knowing what your starting terrain is....I will say, however, that since G. Khan starts with Hunting I would have made at least one scout for faster speed to find your enemies and better results from goody hut popping. Making two cheap units (warrior, scout) may make sense depending on how heavily forested your surroundings are and whether you can tell you are on an island or not. Making three settlers right away sounds like overkill, though....It's best to have some good city sites planned out before cranking out the settlers.

@to any reader - Here's an excellent example of where it would make no sense at all to pursue a "worker first". Take a look at this screenshot:


I am playing as Justinian I as the Byzantines. He starts with the Wheel and Mysticism. This starting area is so thickly populated with forests it will take quite a while before a worker can actually do anything of value. I need fishing to even start building a workboat for the clams once my capitol's borders pop out to a 21-tile area. I need mining AND bronzeworking to chop down the trees. With agriculture I can only work *one* grassland square to the northeast and then I would also have to study Animal Husbandry just to get the cow tile up and running. I can't study pottery because it won't do me much good to try and build cottages right away until I can chop some trees down (requiring both Mining and Bronze Working).
I'll have to spend a little time trying to figure out the most efficient starting tech path here....This game is an Emperor difficulty game so I don't hold out much hope of getting an early religion even though I start with Mysticism (it also would put me even further behind for early city development).
This situation truly screams out to me..."Warrior First!"

~Benford's Law

 

[OTAKUjbski]

As many people have pointed out already, there's no "right" answer as to what should always be built first. Changes to game settings, local terrain, starting techs and preferred strategy all affect what the first few builds should be.

One build order that never seems to change for me, though, is building a Worker before the first Settler.

Depending upon how large the Capital is when the Worker starts, the Worker can usually improve 2 to 4 tiles in the BFC before the Settler completes. Since that's usually enough improvement for the Capital to fend for itself, the Settler and the Worker can both go on to the new city site.

Starting the new city with a Worker increases its growth exponentially.

-- my 2

 

[twocan7]

Only use online at work. I have to save it to disk and then load it. Your screen shot is almost exactly my situation but with no water. My thought process was send a warrior with each settler and build a new warrior in capital. I might be trying to expand to quickly.

I know it is different for every player. I get to reading all the threads and can get overwhelmed pretty easily. I feel like a Kindergartner

I always send settlers without workers. I never thought about sending workers with my settlers. I will implement this next game.

Thanks for helping a newb in training

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I need fishing to even start building a workboat for the clams once my capitol's borders pop out to a 21-tile area.

I think you'll find that you don't need Fishing any time soon.

 

[Benford's Law]

@VoiceOfUnreason - I tend to agree with your "no need for fishing" now, even though starting with the wheel and studying both fishing and agriculture would significantly speed up the beakers earned towards pottery later on (as per the research formula article by Requies). I'll try to figure out something good here....But I was simply pointing out why a worker first in this particular game would actually be a bad play....

@twocan7 - Glad I could help you out in some way. I am still a newbie, too. I just enjoy taking any unique situation and trying to make logical inferences to figure out what the best approach to a problem may be (which is why I am so hooked on Civ 4 with its limitless possibilities! )

~Benford's Law

EDIT - And, a big whoops to myself! After a PM with VoiceOfUnreason, I can see that building a work boat would be impossible being one square off the coast, anyway. People always say, "Don't build cities one square away from the coast!". Normally, I don't, either....but it looked like a great commerce city and I was not aware that a work boat cannot be built *EVEN IF A SEAFOOD SQUARE IS IN YOUR CITY RADIUS* if your city is not directly on the coast. You learn something new about this game every day, it seems.....

 

[Maben]

Haha I was just about to post that myself Benford to clarify it for you before I read your edit. Don't worry, I made the same discovery just the other week. And only a few days ago I found out that even with rivers running through your city's tiles, the city has to actually be ADJACENT to the river in order to build a levee.

I almost never found a city one space from a coast these days, even if you could move a workboat down from another city to get a resource, the punishment of not being able to build a lighthouse is pretty harsh.

 

[Benford's Law]

@Maben - Hey, that was a good idea about having another city building a work boat and sending it to the capitol....very creative! In this case, the BFC would only have one water tile (the clams) so a lighthouse would pretty much be a non-issue and a waste of hammers. EDIT- Not to mention, of course, a lighthouse is impossible to build here, anyway.
I checked this rule myself a few minutes ago (ruining this game by doing so) and I didn't consider the possibility of building a future coastal city that could send a boat over to Constantinople in the process. If I had stopped to think about the possibility of sending over a work boat from another city at a later time I wouldn't have tested this rule (and trashing this game).
Anyway, the capitol site looked excellent for commerce/good food and the hilltop riverside location sealed the deal for me even though it was landlocked. Too bad the game is headed for the recycle bin.

~Benford's Law

 

[xen01]

On a multiplayer pangaea map be sure to tell everyone that your building a worker first. This would encourage your city being 'visited' by a lot in the important early stages of the game.

 

[Trynthlas]

On a multiplayer pangaea map be sure to tell everyone that your building a worker first. This would encourage your city being 'visited' by a lot in the important early stages of the game.

Multiplayer is an entirely different game, and as this thread is pretty much asking about single player tactics, that comment was rather pointless. ...also a very weak attempt at trolling.

 

[duende29]

@Benford: Yeah, the city would have been a lot better placed 1 NW, but your Warrior started on the other side >_> Wouldn't have killed to move the Settle 1 NW then back to starting hill if there was nothing worth it there.

Anyway, yes, Warrior is the best choice in forested starts, or when you see you'll be wasting turns with the workers.