DisruptiveIdiot
Prince
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2003
- Messages
- 319
Don't forget to make an army with the Leader going for rome, a Knight army is pretty invincible until cavalry.
AM6- 5CC Always War (Dare to try??)
- Thread starter amirsan
- Start date
cgannon64
BOB DYLAN'S ROCKIN OUT!
Sure. BTW, I'm assuming we're staying with PTW 1.21? I have to stay at 1.21 because of the GOTM.
cgannon64
BOB DYLAN'S ROCKIN OUT!
Hey, where is the save? 
DisruptiveIdiot
Prince
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2003
- Messages
- 319
cgannon64
BOB DYLAN'S ROCKIN OUT!
Playing now.
cgannon64
BOB DYLAN'S ROCKIN OUT!
Here are my 10 turns. No cities taken, but I think it was a good set and our position is improved.
[Inherited Turn - 440 AD] OK. Looks like our Horse Upgrade force is 7 Horses, which will go in a Knight Army and 4 more. That isn't going to cut it, IMO, for us to finish off our continent. However, I see that we are 3 turns away from Monotheism. That is going to give us enough time to build up a sizable force (15-20). Once the current infra builds end, we'll start that. As for our forces in Viking territory, they look painfully depleted. We're probably going to be able to take Bergen and Tronheim, but not much more. That should be fine, though, because it will significantly cripple Rangar, and we'll have enough forces in the area to slowly gain ground while we wait for the Knights. Here goes.
(IT) A Sword pops out of Trondheim and redlines one of our Horses, who retreats.
[Turn 1 - 450 AD] Courthouse->Horse in Neapolis. We have a dilemma here - it will take a Legion approximately 18 turns to get to the front, so a Horse will make it in 9. 18 turns is a LONG time, but Horses won't cut it on the front. I think we'll equally make Legions and Horses but keep the Horses home for the upgrade. Legion->Legion in Cumae. A Legion kills the Babylonian Spear/Settler, so we get two more Babylonian workers. Three floodplains pillaged; Horse moves out of range of possible counterattack from Trondheim. Two Viking Archers killed, our Legions are wounded in the process. I think we should dismantle the second front and move them to the Viking territory. That front is kind of useless because it is incomplete, the AIs aren't going to send anything serious at this point, and if they do, our closer front can back it up. Plus that will add three horses, three Legions, and a Spear to the front, very valuable. I move our badly injured units to outside Viking territory so they can heal - slowly, but heal nonetheless. Meanwhile Maximus moves along at 2 tiles/turn - I'm playing it safe. I notice we have an exploration Galley. That's good, I think he should move to Babylonian territory, as that is the most likely place where we'll find the second island.
(IT) Horse killed by a Viking Sword. The bastards.
[Turn 2 - 460 AD] Upgrade Horse count up to 9, with 4 cities building them. Trondheim is down to 7 Pop. We're going to swing around it, burning the fields as we go, to Bergen which we'll conquer. By then the Second Front reinforcements should arrive, who could, in combination with the Bergen forces, take Trondheim. Damn it! That Sword who is harrassing our troops has been caught outside of Trondheim, but we have no units within range. Grr. Not much action in Scandanavia, there shouldn't be for about 6 turns or so when the forces will arrive at Bergen.
(IT) One Legion killed, one wounded by Sword attacks. I'm getting tempted to attack Trondheim. Maybe we should hit Trondheim, and then Bergen. We'll see how quickly Trondheim falls pop-wise.
[Turn 3 - 470 AD] Monotheism done, Feudalism for 11 turns. We attack a Sword, lose 2 Legions in the process. Damn it, he was just as wounded as we were!
The Bergen plan will definetley have to wait, meanwhile Trondheim has stabilized at 7 Pop. Right now we have 4 Healthy Legions in the area and 4 wounded in the area. If we bide our time for a bit, I think we can storm Trondheim and how and destroy it. I move our front-line Legions into "Wait" formation, that being fortified behind rivers and on mountains. They'll move onto an attack tile when the wounded Legions are healed.
[Turn 4 - 480 AD] Up to 12 Horses. Looks good. Only a few more and we're set. Feudalism in 8.
[Turn 5 - 490 AD] Horse kills Sword, is covered by a Elite Legion. We should be ready to attack Trondheim in a few turns, with 8 healthy Legions in the region, moving onto an attack point. Maximus is almost home, he is at the Outpost for the Original Front.
[Turn 6 - 500 AD] 15 Horsies now. At a cost of 80g per Knight, and us only having about 1200g, we're going to have to stop there. I switch all construction to Infra builds. Ragnar has Pikes now. Damn it. Now it seems a little more important to starve him down to 5 pop, with a 3 attack on 3 defense battle not much to my liking. I'll see what we can do. I lower Science a notch so we don't lose gpt.
[Turn 7 - 510 AD] Maximus is now safely within a few tiles of Rome.
I think the only way to starve Trondheim, now that all improvements have been destroyed, is to occupy all the Flood Plains. Lets hope we can do that safely. 8 Floodplains and 2 Grasslands currently occupied by Roman troops. 
[Turn 8 - 520 AD] Babs offer us peace. I agree to talk, just to see how many cities he has - 5 - then I tell him Peace will come with Death! Trondheim still at Size 7. HOW? We know occupy 8 Floodplain and 3 Grassland. That leaves Trondheim with 4 2 food/turn producing tiles, so he HAS to be starving now. It should be a few turns before he drops to size 6 and then 5, but I think its necessarily. Maybe the next player wants to risk a Legion vs. Pike situation, but I don't. Maximus is safely in Rome.
(IT) A MedInf attacks one of our Legions, and loses. Ah, so they hooked up the Iron again. Since we can't take Bergen yet, I'll send a Legion to camp on their Iron and pillage it.
[Turn 9 - 530 AD] Trondheim still at size 7. More units in Trondheim's radius, now shifting to occupy more territory.
(IT) Two Archers attack two of our Horses, and the Archers lose. That's what I get for shifting Legions around and leaving them open.
[Turn 10 - 540 AD] Two Bowmen appear in-between the Home Front and the Scandavian Front. Two Legions attack them, one dies, one Bowman dies. Trondheim down to size 6! OK, one more pop point. Wounded horsies move out of Viking borders to heal.
[Notes] Priority No. 1: PILLAGE IRON NEAR BERGEN AND FORTIFY LEGION THERE. Do this above anything. Second of all, wait until Trondheim drops to size 4, then arrange all the Legions onto one tile (make sure its not across a river) and lets burn Trondheim to the ground. Then we can take Bergen and the rest. Meanwhile, we have 15 Horses at the Homeland and 1200g to upgrade them. Unless we get another 80g, building any more horses will be worthless. We are 3 turns from Feudalism, research Chivarly right after that. Good luck, and let the Viking empire crumble!
Here is the save:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/AM6-540AD.zip
And a panoramic shot of the front:
[Inherited Turn - 440 AD] OK. Looks like our Horse Upgrade force is 7 Horses, which will go in a Knight Army and 4 more. That isn't going to cut it, IMO, for us to finish off our continent. However, I see that we are 3 turns away from Monotheism. That is going to give us enough time to build up a sizable force (15-20). Once the current infra builds end, we'll start that. As for our forces in Viking territory, they look painfully depleted. We're probably going to be able to take Bergen and Tronheim, but not much more. That should be fine, though, because it will significantly cripple Rangar, and we'll have enough forces in the area to slowly gain ground while we wait for the Knights. Here goes.
(IT) A Sword pops out of Trondheim and redlines one of our Horses, who retreats.
[Turn 1 - 450 AD] Courthouse->Horse in Neapolis. We have a dilemma here - it will take a Legion approximately 18 turns to get to the front, so a Horse will make it in 9. 18 turns is a LONG time, but Horses won't cut it on the front. I think we'll equally make Legions and Horses but keep the Horses home for the upgrade. Legion->Legion in Cumae. A Legion kills the Babylonian Spear/Settler, so we get two more Babylonian workers. Three floodplains pillaged; Horse moves out of range of possible counterattack from Trondheim. Two Viking Archers killed, our Legions are wounded in the process. I think we should dismantle the second front and move them to the Viking territory. That front is kind of useless because it is incomplete, the AIs aren't going to send anything serious at this point, and if they do, our closer front can back it up. Plus that will add three horses, three Legions, and a Spear to the front, very valuable. I move our badly injured units to outside Viking territory so they can heal - slowly, but heal nonetheless. Meanwhile Maximus moves along at 2 tiles/turn - I'm playing it safe. I notice we have an exploration Galley. That's good, I think he should move to Babylonian territory, as that is the most likely place where we'll find the second island.
(IT) Horse killed by a Viking Sword. The bastards.
[Turn 2 - 460 AD] Upgrade Horse count up to 9, with 4 cities building them. Trondheim is down to 7 Pop. We're going to swing around it, burning the fields as we go, to Bergen which we'll conquer. By then the Second Front reinforcements should arrive, who could, in combination with the Bergen forces, take Trondheim. Damn it! That Sword who is harrassing our troops has been caught outside of Trondheim, but we have no units within range. Grr. Not much action in Scandanavia, there shouldn't be for about 6 turns or so when the forces will arrive at Bergen.
(IT) One Legion killed, one wounded by Sword attacks. I'm getting tempted to attack Trondheim. Maybe we should hit Trondheim, and then Bergen. We'll see how quickly Trondheim falls pop-wise.
[Turn 3 - 470 AD] Monotheism done, Feudalism for 11 turns. We attack a Sword, lose 2 Legions in the process. Damn it, he was just as wounded as we were!
The Bergen plan will definetley have to wait, meanwhile Trondheim has stabilized at 7 Pop. Right now we have 4 Healthy Legions in the area and 4 wounded in the area. If we bide our time for a bit, I think we can storm Trondheim and how and destroy it. I move our front-line Legions into "Wait" formation, that being fortified behind rivers and on mountains. They'll move onto an attack tile when the wounded Legions are healed. [Turn 4 - 480 AD] Up to 12 Horses. Looks good. Only a few more and we're set. Feudalism in 8.
[Turn 5 - 490 AD] Horse kills Sword, is covered by a Elite Legion. We should be ready to attack Trondheim in a few turns, with 8 healthy Legions in the region, moving onto an attack point. Maximus is almost home, he is at the Outpost for the Original Front.
[Turn 6 - 500 AD] 15 Horsies now. At a cost of 80g per Knight, and us only having about 1200g, we're going to have to stop there. I switch all construction to Infra builds. Ragnar has Pikes now. Damn it. Now it seems a little more important to starve him down to 5 pop, with a 3 attack on 3 defense battle not much to my liking. I'll see what we can do. I lower Science a notch so we don't lose gpt.
[Turn 7 - 510 AD] Maximus is now safely within a few tiles of Rome.
I think the only way to starve Trondheim, now that all improvements have been destroyed, is to occupy all the Flood Plains. Lets hope we can do that safely. 8 Floodplains and 2 Grasslands currently occupied by Roman troops. [Turn 8 - 520 AD] Babs offer us peace. I agree to talk, just to see how many cities he has - 5 - then I tell him Peace will come with Death! Trondheim still at Size 7. HOW? We know occupy 8 Floodplain and 3 Grassland. That leaves Trondheim with 4 2 food/turn producing tiles, so he HAS to be starving now. It should be a few turns before he drops to size 6 and then 5, but I think its necessarily. Maybe the next player wants to risk a Legion vs. Pike situation, but I don't. Maximus is safely in Rome.
(IT) A MedInf attacks one of our Legions, and loses. Ah, so they hooked up the Iron again. Since we can't take Bergen yet, I'll send a Legion to camp on their Iron and pillage it.
[Turn 9 - 530 AD] Trondheim still at size 7. More units in Trondheim's radius, now shifting to occupy more territory.
(IT) Two Archers attack two of our Horses, and the Archers lose. That's what I get for shifting Legions around and leaving them open.
[Turn 10 - 540 AD] Two Bowmen appear in-between the Home Front and the Scandavian Front. Two Legions attack them, one dies, one Bowman dies. Trondheim down to size 6! OK, one more pop point. Wounded horsies move out of Viking borders to heal.
[Notes] Priority No. 1: PILLAGE IRON NEAR BERGEN AND FORTIFY LEGION THERE. Do this above anything. Second of all, wait until Trondheim drops to size 4, then arrange all the Legions onto one tile (make sure its not across a river) and lets burn Trondheim to the ground. Then we can take Bergen and the rest. Meanwhile, we have 15 Horses at the Homeland and 1200g to upgrade them. Unless we get another 80g, building any more horses will be worthless. We are 3 turns from Feudalism, research Chivarly right after that. Good luck, and let the Viking empire crumble!
Here is the save:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/AM6-540AD.zip
And a panoramic shot of the front:
DisruptiveIdiot
Prince
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2003
- Messages
- 319
Um OK turns but why didn't you go get stavenger and birka? They should be defenseless. IMO you weren't agressive enough but you still did pretty good.
DisruptiveIdiot
Prince
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2003
- Messages
- 319
Every citizen gives a 16% defense bonus; you can check in the editor.
cgannon64
BOB DYLAN'S ROCKIN OUT!
Defenseless? Hmm, didn't think of that. I know wasn't very agressive, but I didn't want to make the mistake of last time and attack with few units several turns in a row.
@ LK: It was a typo, I meant size 5. Anwyay, doesn't the bonus start at size 6, not 7? If it is 7, then I missed a turn where we could have attacked. If the bonus starts at size 6, like I thought, we should attack when it is at size 5. If it starts at size 7, which is news to me, then we should attack ASAP.
Yeah. Good progress -we' re surely doing our best to avoid the Space Race! 
Got the save. I'll play this evening.
I'll make sure that no Iron is connected in Scandinavia, and probe Trondheim's defenses. Hopefully it will fall, and all its citizen be put to the sword...
If that goes smoothly enough, I will try to garrison the Iron sources with a few Legions fortified there. There may be troops enough to raze one or two more settlements, but that would be a bonus -I would like to leave a good garrison in the area, to prevent the Vikings from rebuilding while we prepare our reinforcements.
Later.
Got the save. I'll play this evening.
I'll make sure that no Iron is connected in Scandinavia, and probe Trondheim's defenses. Hopefully it will fall, and all its citizen be put to the sword...
If that goes smoothly enough, I will try to garrison the Iron sources with a few Legions fortified there. There may be troops enough to raze one or two more settlements, but that would be a bonus -I would like to leave a good garrison in the area, to prevent the Vikings from rebuilding while we prepare our reinforcements.
Later.
Yes, I was just about to ask what was of the Great Leader.
And you already know that I was not too eager to build an Army with the guy...
And you already know that I was not too eager to build an Army with the guy...
DisruptiveIdiot
Prince
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2003
- Messages
- 319
Awww... but I wanted to smash the Babs 
Oh well... but isn't 1k enough to upgrade all our horsemen? And legionaries are stronger than med infantry (I think).
Oh well... but isn't 1k enough to upgrade all our horsemen? And legionaries are stronger than med infantry (I think).
Here I am.
Pre - turn
Colosseum in Rome? Maybe a good idea for a WLTKD -and then, what is Rome without a Colosseum
Killed redlined Bab bowman with Horseman.
Two Scandinavian Med Inf appear next to the Legion on the Bergen Mountain. The first one kills me without any effort (what! A Legion on a mountain! This is not a good start...).
Turn 1 - 550 AD
Trondheim is down to 5 pop. Let's start the offensive without any hesitation (...). Pride of Rome shall lead the assault.
Pride or Rome dies in a glorious battle, in which he severely wounded the defending Pikeman.
Two more pikemen fall under our Legions' gladii (one promotion to Elite).
The first wounded Pike made his last stand, killing yet another Elite legion... but... Trondheim is razed. Four Viking workers are captured.
I regroup the stack before heading towards Bergen.
IT - One Mace appears next to the ruins of Trondheim.
Turn 2 - 560 AD
Antium: Library - Horseman (you never know...)
Mace is killed by a vet Legion (no promotion). Three Legions and two horsemen are going to the Iron mines of Bergen.
The other units are fortified in the ruins of Trondheim.
Mining of the Cow is complete. I send the worker to finish clearing the forest in time to use the shield for the Colossus.
I am also sending a worker back to build a colony on the furs (oh, luxury!).
Turn 3 - 570 AD
Discovered Feudalism.
Research to Chivalry - with Rome on Wealth, due in 10 turns with +1 gpt. Since there is not much to build in Rome but more units and I don't think it would be worth spending 20 turns on Sun Tzu, I go for wealth (at least for a few turns).
Moved a few troops. The two horsies are on the mountain. I was fearing that Viking units would occupy it to attack us -now I hope the horsies resist there for one turn.
IT - Med Inf attacks, redlines a horse which retreats.
Turn 4 - 580 AD
The Legions reach the iron, which is pillaged.
Now to Bergen...
5 Legionaries + 1 Horseman leave for an 'expedition' to the Northern cities and Iron mines.
Other legions and Med Inf are gathering at the Furs, both to protect them and to prepare for another expedition on the nearby Viking settlements.
Two legions are sent to the outpost, where a Bab bowman has appeared.
Turn 5 - 590 AD
Moved Legions (rolling over a Med Inf).
Bergen razed. Two workers captured.
The Trondheim stack moves onto the mountain to the South.
IT - The Viking is coming with Archers.
Turn 6 - 600 AD
Troops move. Workers work.
I have been running -1gpt deficit research for two-three turns, as this would gain us several turns on Chivalry.
Next turn Neapolis is finishing its library -I will reassess the situation then.
A Viking pikeman is chasing my worker, 2 tiles behind, under the watchful eyes of my legions...
IT - Lost Outpost for 1 Turn.
Turn 7 - 610 AD
Razed Reikjavik, loosing 1 legion.
Now to Birka, where I am planning to leave an outpost yes, I liked it ).
Built the Colony on furs. I am also sending a few legions and MI there.
Neapolis: Library - Marketplace.
Veii: Med Inf - Horseman
Set science back to 40%. Chivalry due in 7, earning +12 gpt.
IT - Cumae: Med Inf - Library (I hadn't noticed they haven't got it).
The people love me.
Turn 8 - 620 AD
Building some roads in the Scandinavian wastelands.
The Galley seems to have found another land. One turn in high seas *crossing fingers*
IT - Galley survived!
Antium: horseman - Courthouse.
Turn 9 - 630 AD
Some troop movements. I am sending three Legions to Stavanger, and moving on to Birka.
Turn 10 - 640 AD
Attacked a Bab bowman that was passing by. Won, legion redlined.
The Galley has made the crossing to what appears as another island, but didn't find any sign of life...
The laptop got overheated and switched off. I lost the last two turns of the timeline (nothing special happened, though).
Conclusions:
Could have run a bit faster on the conquest, but I didn't want to scatter our troops throughout Scandinavia -I feel we are sufficiently in control of the situation.
- Legions are ready to assault Birka, with a worker on the Iron hill ready for the Outpost (you never know, they may try to land a Settler there...).
- Another three-group is approaching Stavanger.
- Several horsemen, workers and one-two legions are on the mountain near the former Trondheim.
- Two more Legions, plus the incoming Med Inf, are on the new colony. From there, they can be directed towards the southern Viking burgs or to join an expedition on Babylon.
- Maybe I should have kept a better watch on Bab, but I was concentrating on Scandinavia and didn't want to spare too many units.
- The Galley hasn't found another civ. If there is nobody else in the world, I think we are very close to winning the game...
The situation:
And the save
Pre - turn
Colosseum in Rome? Maybe a good idea for a WLTKD -and then, what is Rome without a Colosseum
Killed redlined Bab bowman with Horseman.
Two Scandinavian Med Inf appear next to the Legion on the Bergen Mountain. The first one kills me without any effort (what! A Legion on a mountain! This is not a good start...).
Turn 1 - 550 AD
Trondheim is down to 5 pop. Let's start the offensive without any hesitation (...). Pride of Rome shall lead the assault.
Pride or Rome dies in a glorious battle, in which he severely wounded the defending Pikeman.
Two more pikemen fall under our Legions' gladii (one promotion to Elite).
The first wounded Pike made his last stand, killing yet another Elite legion... but... Trondheim is razed. Four Viking workers are captured.
I regroup the stack before heading towards Bergen.
IT - One Mace appears next to the ruins of Trondheim.
Turn 2 - 560 AD
Antium: Library - Horseman (you never know...)
Mace is killed by a vet Legion (no promotion). Three Legions and two horsemen are going to the Iron mines of Bergen.
The other units are fortified in the ruins of Trondheim.
Mining of the Cow is complete. I send the worker to finish clearing the forest in time to use the shield for the Colossus.
I am also sending a worker back to build a colony on the furs (oh, luxury!).
Turn 3 - 570 AD
Discovered Feudalism.
Research to Chivalry - with Rome on Wealth, due in 10 turns with +1 gpt. Since there is not much to build in Rome but more units and I don't think it would be worth spending 20 turns on Sun Tzu, I go for wealth (at least for a few turns).
Moved a few troops. The two horsies are on the mountain. I was fearing that Viking units would occupy it to attack us -now I hope the horsies resist there for one turn.
IT - Med Inf attacks, redlines a horse which retreats.
Turn 4 - 580 AD
The Legions reach the iron, which is pillaged.
Now to Bergen...
5 Legionaries + 1 Horseman leave for an 'expedition' to the Northern cities and Iron mines.
Other legions and Med Inf are gathering at the Furs, both to protect them and to prepare for another expedition on the nearby Viking settlements.
Two legions are sent to the outpost, where a Bab bowman has appeared.
Turn 5 - 590 AD
Moved Legions (rolling over a Med Inf).
Bergen razed. Two workers captured.
The Trondheim stack moves onto the mountain to the South.
IT - The Viking is coming with Archers.
Turn 6 - 600 AD
Troops move. Workers work.
I have been running -1gpt deficit research for two-three turns, as this would gain us several turns on Chivalry.
Next turn Neapolis is finishing its library -I will reassess the situation then.
A Viking pikeman is chasing my worker, 2 tiles behind, under the watchful eyes of my legions...
IT - Lost Outpost for 1 Turn.
Turn 7 - 610 AD
Razed Reikjavik, loosing 1 legion.
Now to Birka, where I am planning to leave an outpost yes, I liked it
).Built the Colony on furs. I am also sending a few legions and MI there.
Neapolis: Library - Marketplace.
Veii: Med Inf - Horseman
Set science back to 40%. Chivalry due in 7, earning +12 gpt.
IT - Cumae: Med Inf - Library (I hadn't noticed they haven't got it).
The people love me.
Turn 8 - 620 AD
Building some roads in the Scandinavian wastelands.
The Galley seems to have found another land. One turn in high seas *crossing fingers*
IT - Galley survived!
Antium: horseman - Courthouse.
Turn 9 - 630 AD
Some troop movements. I am sending three Legions to Stavanger, and moving on to Birka.
Turn 10 - 640 AD
Attacked a Bab bowman that was passing by. Won, legion redlined.
The Galley has made the crossing to what appears as another island, but didn't find any sign of life...
The laptop got overheated and switched off. I lost the last two turns of the timeline (nothing special happened, though).
Conclusions:
Could have run a bit faster on the conquest, but I didn't want to scatter our troops throughout Scandinavia -I feel we are sufficiently in control of the situation.
- Legions are ready to assault Birka, with a worker on the Iron hill ready for the Outpost (you never know, they may try to land a Settler there...).
- Another three-group is approaching Stavanger.
- Several horsemen, workers and one-two legions are on the mountain near the former Trondheim.
- Two more Legions, plus the incoming Med Inf, are on the new colony. From there, they can be directed towards the southern Viking burgs or to join an expedition on Babylon.
- Maybe I should have kept a better watch on Bab, but I was concentrating on Scandinavia and didn't want to spare too many units.
- The Galley hasn't found another civ. If there is nobody else in the world, I think we are very close to winning the game...
The situation:
And the save
I will miss him
The "greedy" Karasu stroke again
-and secured our 7th ! lux
Isn't it funny? You deny a key resource and the rest is easyIT - The Viking is coming with Archers.
Good turns, once Chivalry comes in we will end this
'Got it'
cgannon64
BOB DYLAN'S ROCKIN OUT!
Looks like the end is near...
amirsan
King of all Kings
Great turns!! That was alot of progress in one day!!! Ok, it seems you guys aren't in favor of a Space Victory so Conquest and 20k is our only choice. Since the tech pace is slow then 20k wouldn't be the plan so Conquest is the plan. We will finish of the Viks and sail off to our far away opponent??? We are definitley making a another version of this game sinse I had NO CHANCE of playing this one .
.
Glad to hear you say that, Am! It is just courteous to give the AI another chance. Should we step up one level
?But what about your laptop? I was hoping that you would make it at least for the final round (if Belisar doesn't kill'em all in his turns...
)
