Americas

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

^ Are you sure is this a good ilustration of Cunhambebe with his cannon? a cannon he's tucking has rather thin barrel. it ain't gonna work as weapons when loaded. gunbarrel is needed to be consiberably thicker

 

[Henri Christophe]

^ Are you sure is this a good ilustration of Cunhambebe with his cannon? a cannon he's tucking has rather thin barrel. it ain't gonna work as weapons when loaded. gunbarrel is needed to be consiberably thicker

View attachment 648735

The only other image I can found on internet is that:

But Cunhambebe is supose to be a man very tall and strong, even his name make a reference of his strongness. Cunhã means women, and Bebe is kind of crumple. Because the cheast of Cunhambebe is big as of the one women but kneaded.
Once I also saw a paint in a museum with Cunhambebe with a canon, but unfortunelly I lost the photo I tooked. So we need to relly in this two images anacronics.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

^ That weapon is Hackbuss, precursor to Arquebus, it usually has underslung hook to brace against wall. and it can have THIS big barrel because it was originaly designed as fortress defensive weapons.
eventually this is the fisrt gun to have sqeezing trigger added. @Boris Gudenuf will add more details regarding to gunpowder evolution.
this is a bit off topic regarding to gunpowder weapon evolutions. ones that Musketeer should NOT predate cannons but rather vice versa.
But i'm not sure when did Cunhambebe shown up? in Japan there's also very similiar man portable cannon called Ohdzutsu (locally romanized as Ohzutu but pronounced the same), and in 16th Century Japan has a contact with Portugal . it is possible that there might as well be Japanese boarding Portguese ship with these big guns and ended up in Brazil. or Portuguese banderiantes might carried big Hackbuss when venturing into Amazon river and lost ones to one of these tribes. or Portuguese merchants did indeed trade guns with something that could interests Europeans or with informations of Golden City of Amazon? If Japanese is involved Cunhambebe's big gun might have been Ohdzutsu as well as being big Hackbuss.

^ Odzutsu on wheeled carriage.

^ Long barrel Odzutsu.
And more about Joseph Brant please. https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...representations-for-civ7.674580/post-16198525 is he a good leader of Mohawk/Iroquois in Civ7?

 

[Henri Christophe]

But i'm not sure when did Cunhambebe shown up?

It's very hard to verify when exactly lived cunhambebe, we know was around 16th century. The Wikipédia says his death is in 1555.
But maybe had 2 guys called Cunhambebe, because all cronist of 16th century have contact with Cunhambebe. I mean, The german castaway called Hans Staden, the french priest Jean de Léry and the portuguese priest José de Anchieta speak about a strong and healthy Cunhambebe, and some historians argue if Cunhambebe was so strong and healthy at the time of Hans Staden, so Cunhambebe should be a old man at time of José de Anchieta. That's the why some historians believe there is 2 Cunhambebes. But I think the game don't should portrait nothing about that and just to put a single Cunhambebe in game.

in Japan there's also very similiar man portable cannon called Ohdzutsu (locally romanized as Ohzutu but pronounced the same), and in 16th Century Japan has a contact with Portugal

I found it in the google as Ozutsu. Very cool to know that, that just reinforce is possible to grab cannon with your hands and shot.

But in the Cunhambebe's case, I think he get his cannon from the French, not the Portuguese. Because the Tupinambás were ally of the Frenchs.

And more about Joseph Brant please. https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...representations-for-civ7.674580/post-16198525 is he a good leader of Mohawk/Iroquois in Civ7?

And I have nothing against Joseph Brant, but I still prefere Tadodaho or Jigonhsasee as leader of Iroquois.
Jigonhsasee because it's a women, and Tadodaho because he was the first the facto ruler of Iroquois, and should be more war like.

 

[BuchiTaton]

And what should Charros combat animation be?
1. Chargers (with either lance or sabers)
2. Pistoliers (shooting pistols on horseback)
3. Carabiniers (shooting carbines or shotguns on horseback)
4. Dismount and shoot on foot.

- Lanceros de Jalisco, charge with lance.
- Chinacos, lance or dismount and shoot.
- Rurales, pistols or carbines on horseback.
- Charros, any that fit for the design.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

^
1. Should Lanceros de Jalisco wear Napoleonic style Ulan/Lancers uniform with Mexican livery or wear distinctive 'pure mexican' style outfit? Mexican army of 1830s were a cabon copy of French Napoleonic Grand Army and still wear the very same uniform even in Texas campaign of 1830s or against Americans in 1840s (Which they already switched to 1813 style Prussian Army Uniforms, interestingly they began the War of 1812 with similiar 'Redcoats' uniforms recolored)
2. Tell me about Chinacos? did the name associate with state or tribe they were recruited or were they 'Chinese' in Mexico in 1830s already? AFAIK Chinese people didn't come to Continental Americas until after Sutter Mill Goldrush of 1849.
3. Aren't Rurales a kind of policemen similiar to Texas Rangers?

 

[Patine]

3. Aren't Rurales a kind of policemen similiar to Texas Rangers?

I know there are Rurales today - they're mentioned, along with their counterparts, the Federales, as elite law-enforcers in the Mexican Drug War. They probably only tie to the ones @BuchiTaton is talking about as members of the same organization, but much, much later, and like with many far-down-the-line successors in such organizational lineages, very different, practically speaking.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Is the rurales this dudes of this paint?

Because, if yes, I think they should be UU of Mexico. They are very iconic of the Mexican revolution.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

2. Tell me about Chinacos? did the name associate with state or tribe they were recruited or were they 'Chinese' in Mexico in 1830s already? AFAIK Chinese people didn't come to Continental Americas until after Sutter Mill Goldrush of 1849.

There were Chinese in Spanish Mexico as early as the late 16th century, when one of the major trade routes of the Spanish Empire was the Manila - Acapulco route trading silver from Mexico to Manila in exchange for Chinese silk and porcelain. As early as 1635 CE the Spanish barbers in Mexico City officially complained about unfair competition from cheap Chinese barbers, and the city already had a "Chinatown"
See
Gordon, Peter, and Juan Jose Morales: The Silver Way: China, Spanish America and the Birth of Globalization, 1565 - 1815
or:
Giraldez, Arturo: The Age of Trade: The Manila Galleons and the Dawn of the Global Economy

 

[BuchiTaton]

^
1. Should Lanceros de Jalisco wear Napoleonic style Ulan/Lancers uniform with Mexican livery or wear distinctive 'pure mexican' style outfit? Mexican army of 1830s were a cabon copy of French Napoleonic Grand Army and still wear the very same uniform even in Texas campaign of 1830s or against Americans in 1840s (Which they already switched to 1813 style Prussian Army Uniforms, interestingly they began the War of 1812 with similiar 'Redcoats' uniforms recolored)
2. Tell me about Chinacos? did the name associate with state or tribe they were recruited or were they 'Chinese' in Mexico in 1830s already? AFAIK Chinese people didn't come to Continental Americas until after Sutter Mill Goldrush of 1849.
3. Aren't Rurales a kind of policemen similiar to Texas Rangers?

Spoiler Cavalry :

The uniforms and weapons changed a lot in one century (1810 to 1910), but this image show us the middle point (1860's) for three of these units.

1- I dont see the point to have a unit looking like the ones of other country. For a Mexican-American war period the best option is this one.

Spoiler M-Aw :

2- Chinaco its not related to chinese people in Mexico. The term "chinaco" was equivalent to "rabble", by time of the Guerra de Reforma the Conservatives used it as a pejorative term for the Liberals but the later appropriated it in an ironic but proud tone. So this unit is related to supporters of the Republic.
3- The original Rurales from 1860 to 1910 were in name a mounted police force, but in practice they not only dealt with bandits, also with native nation uprisings, were a paramilitar force, counterweight to regular army and a way to strengthen local authorities and their bond with the presidential power.

Spoiler Rurales :

Around 1910

 

[Birch617]

Almost sure that if we get a third civ from the Mesoamerican region it would not be a proper mesoamerican culture but Mexico. Lets be honest with Byzantium+Ottoman civ and others like Canada and Australia is obvious that Mexico+Aztec civs are a likely possibility (just look at AoE3 despite have Aztecs they added Mexico that turned to be their most interesting designed new civ).

I am fan of ancient and real unique civs that have different languages and religions, but the meek amount of civs in-game from diverse regions like Mesoamerica or Mesopotamia show us that Firaxis consider "mission accomplished" have a couple of options from those regions.

Now talking about priorities from Mesoamerica cultural area, the TOP, include Zapotec, Mixtec, Totonac and Purepecha.
+ Ancient achievements.
+ Represent a different sub-region.
+ Famous unique cultures.
+ Numerous current population.
+ Well know leader options.

In a different situation is Teotihucan,
+ Impressive ancient achievements.
+ Interesting urban and social organization.
* Spearthrower Owl seems to be a great figure but we know very little about him.
* The specific core culture is unknown, one guess is Otomi.
- Same sub-region than Aztec.

For Olmec is in a similar situation.
+ Impressive ancient achievements.
+ Famous unique culture.
+ Represent a different sub-region.
* The specific core culture is unknown, guess are Mixe-Zoque.
- There are not proper know Olmec leader options.

While options like Toltec and Xicalanc have too little to add.
* Leader options are mythologized.
* Transitional cultures with lesser material to work with.
- Same sub-region than Aztec and their descendents ended being Aztecs (in the proper broad sense).

I Would love a Totonac civ and it would be great if the flyers dance appear in their design; besides that i also think they could expand from prehispanic Mexico and Guatemala to other cultures of Centralamerica, like Pipil, Nicaraos, Chorotega, Lenca among possible others.

 

[BuchiTaton]

I Would love a Totonac civ and it would be great if the flyers dance appear in their design; besides that i also think they could expand from prehispanic Mexico and Guatemala to other cultures of Centralamerica, like Pipil, Nicaraos, Chorotega, Lenca among possible others.

Cultures from Centralamerican Mesoamerica are possible as minor civs (City-States and "Barbarian"-Clans) but unlikely as playable. The closer option I see are Mosquito or Garifuna civ just to cover also the Caribbean and Afroamerican slots.

 

[Henri Christophe]

The closer option I see are Mosquito or Garifuna civ just to cover also the Caribbean and Afroamerican slots.

I would like to see Mosquitos or Garifunas represented in this game as a city state, their intermix heritage is cool enouth to they received a spot in the game.

But if we think in Afroamerican civs, who should come first, by far, is Haiti.
Even if Haiti appears as a city state, they have the best option as the city of Boïs Caiman ( who helded the voodoo cerimony who started the Haitian revolution).

Other good name to an Afroamerican civ is Palmares, if they become a city state, the city should be Macaco.
And for sure Palmares should spawn Capoeira units, maybe that is not very historical accurate but for a game it is good enouth.

And for last, but not less important, I would like to have Seminole lead by John Horse as a third option for representation of Black diaspora in Americas.
Of course, I know, not all Seminole are black, they are native americans. But, opposite from other tribes who enslaved african humans, the Seminole just don't enslaved them but also welcome they in their family group as a big nation, and just the possibility to have a black character leading an American civ is astonish enouth to be considerated.

Ps. Also I should mencion Jamaica, lead by Queen Nany, also a very strong name to be a civ leader.

 

[Zaarin]

And for last, but not less important, I would like to have Seminole lead by John Horse as a third option for representation of Black diaspora in Americas.
Of course, I know, not all Seminole are black, they are native americans. But, opposite from other tribes who enslaved african humans, the Seminole just don't enslaved them but also welcome they in their family group as a big nation, and just the possibility to have a black character leading an American civ is astonish enouth to be considerated.

The Seminoles were not unique for taking in runaway slaves, though they were unique among the so-called Five Civilized Tribes; as you said, the other four practiced slavery, mostly to maintain their place on the 18th century race hierarchy, which generally ranked Native Americans below Whites but above Blacks. That being said, taking a slot of representation away from one marginalized group to give to another marginalized group is hardly progress. Let's have Haiti and/or more civs from Africa and three or so Indigenous North American civs.

 

[pineappledan]

3- The original Rurales from 1860 to 1910 were in name a mounted police force, but in practice they not only dealt with bandits, also with native nation uprisings, were a paramilitar force, counterweight to regular army and a way to strengthen local authorities and their bond with the presidential power.

Basically what the Canadian NWMP were, yeah. Hence my preference for a Charro as a UU candidate over a Rurales. I don't like the use of paramilitaries as UUs in general. Feels like a conscious decision to lionize thugs and immortalize tools of violent state repression as somehow heroic. It would be like giving the Russians an Oprichnik as a UU.

Unlike the NWMP and RCMP, at least the Rurales were dissolved, and portraying them in a game doesn't serve as propaganda for an active police force.

 

[ehecatzin]

After all this time my historical senses were tingling, people discussing mesoamerican and Mexican cultures as civ candidates...

To add my two cents

1-Santa Anna would be the absolutely worst choice for a Mexican civ leader, as other have mentioned, he was overthrowned several times, and is despised to this day. As a fun trivia, the Mexican hymn had several lines dedicated to him, Its a punishable crime to sings those lines in any official capacity...so yeah we kind of don't like the dude. There's more Mexican history besides El Alamo, but I get why that's the first person to come to mind to so many people.

2- Other more interesting leaders could include Benito Juarez, Porfirio Diaz (a younger Diaz could avoid any controversy) or a founding father like Vicente Guerrero, heck if you go the Gandhi route and choose from famous figures that weren't president you could add Emiliano Zapata, gotta admit I'd love to see him animated.

3- I agree in that the rurales were actually a repressive force used under the Diaz dictatorship, I think Lanceros de Jalisco could work very well. However if you wanted to add something with more revolutionary flavour, Soldaderas could be an option. There were full female regiments that fought during the revolution, hard to get a more iconic look.

Spoiler Soldaderas :

as for the whole Teotihuacan vs Toltec discussion, I've long talked here about my dissapointment with Teotihuacan not being a CS, along with so many other deserving mesoamerican cities. However I'd rather see mesoamerican civilizations we know more about and cover all the bases (leader pool, many cities, unique and alive language, well documented) so, for example, Purepecha, Zapotec, Mixtec. Or even alternate leaders for existing civs , both Aztecs and Mayans could easily have one.

All that said, I do believe the Aztecs are due for a leader that embraced the Toltec ideal (Nezahualcoyotl), but Firaxis will never do a leader other than Monty it seems.

 

[Zaarin]

Firaxis will never do a leader other than Monty it seems.

I feel like Nader Shah threw open the door to all manner of possibilities. I was certain we'd never see a non-Achaemenid Persia, either.

 

[Patine]

3- I agree in that the rurales were actually a repressive force used under the Diaz dictatorship, I think Lanceros de Jalisco could work very well. However if you wanted to add something with more revolutionary flavour, Soldaderas could be an option. There were full female regiments that fought during the revolution, hard to get a more iconic look.

Spoiler Soldaderas :

It seems that certain units (I don't know much about their organization) of the Contras during the Nicaraguan Civil War SEEM to be inspired by this:

 

[Evie]

I mean considering that they aren't even doing the same Monty anymore...

 

[ehecatzin]

I feel like Nader Shah threw open the door to all manner of possibilities. I was certain we'd never see a non-Achaemenid Persia, either.

you know what?....yeah, that does bring me some hope we could see Nezahualcoyotl in his glorious bright blue feathered Coyote furry suit...armor I meant armor.