Amurite fun

[brucedecatz]

As someone pointed out, the Amurite's strength is the number of people capable of casting magic, rather than the magic itself being better. I don't like removing the cap for archmages, since 17 arcane casters is already an insane number. And they have no tear for a lost archmage since it is really easy to replace with another one (the difference in exp gathering is really noticeable with ancestor cave and arcane trait)

"Commander, our Amurite army emerged victorious on the field battle and is now moving towards the enemy capital."
"Great."
"However, their sneaky assassin killed one of our best archmages, I am sorry to report that..."
"No worries, we have 100 applications to fill that post."
"In addition, another archmage fails to dominate an enemy beastmaster. He is extremely sorry for..."
"Old fool. Order him to lead the charge into the enemy capital. We do not need an useless archmage. One that fails in the realm of magic should suicides himself in the realm of arms for the moral benefit for the adept students."
"Got it, commander. But what if he survived the charge? The enemy garrison has been significantly weakened by..."
"Then it is your job to get it done, chanter. You know, we have 100 applications to be an archmage, all promising young man, and it is best not to keep them waiting for too long."

 

[FireBlaze]

As someone pointed out, the Amurite's strength is the number of people capable of casting magic, rather than the magic itself being better. I don't like removing the cap for archmages, since 17 arcane casters is already an insane number. And they have no tear for a lost archmage since it is really easy to replace with another one (the difference in exp gathering is really noticeable with ancestor cave and arcane trait)

"Commander, our Amurite army emerged victorious on the field battle and is now moving towards the enemy capital."
"Great."
"However, their sneaky assassin killed one of our best archmages, I am sorry to report that..."
"No worries, we have 100 applications to fill that post."
"In addition, another archmage fails to dominate an enemy beastmaster. He is extremely sorry for..."
"Old fool. Order him to lead the charge into the enemy capital. We do not need an useless archmage. One that fails in the realm of magic should suicides himself in the realm of arms for the moral benefit for the adept students."
"Got it, commander. But what if he survived the charge? The enemy garrison has been significantly weakened by..."
"Then it is your job to get it done, chanter. You know, we have 100 applications to be an archmage, all promising young man, and it is best not to keep them waiting for too long."

But if they have 100 applicants, then why do they have a certain number of slots to fill for no particular reason besides balancing .
I'm just saying, removing the cap for amurites or something would be good flavor wise. I guess.

 

[DREWid]

its the shoes... theres only so many pairs to fill

 

[PotatoOverdose]

But if they have 100 applicants, then why do they have a certain number of slots to fill for no particular reason besides balancing .
I'm just saying, removing the cap for amurites or something would be good flavor wise. I guess.

Removing the cap is probably too strong, but consider this: the Sidar have their archmage cap increased by 4, why not use a similar system for the Amurites. Perhaps a UU that could only learn one sphere of magic but up to tier 3, upgraded from a mage. Just a thought...

 

[FireBlaze]

Then you can go out and buy more shoes =D

If their qualified, then they should be able to do it. Although this might be bringing in opionins and ignoring the rules of the burocracy that is the Amurites. (My facts are based of "Binges" of reading the civilopida, and memory, so I'm probably way off. And I hardly know what a burocracy is, but I think I fit it in there)

edit-
Hey, not a bad idea bro!
Whats UU though, I could never figure that out >.<
Anyways, if they did have that, then they would have a buncha wasted promo points... after a while anyways.
But then again, we could always give the Amurites the 4th tier of spells =D

 

[PotatoOverdose]

Then you can go out and buy more shoes =D

If their qualified, then they should be able to do it. Although this might be bringing in opionins and ignoring the rules of the burocracy that is the Amurites. (My facts are based of "Binges" of reading the civilopida, and memory, so I'm probably way off. And I hardly know what a burocracy is, but I think I fit it in there)

edit-
Hey, not a bad idea bro!
Whats UU though, I could never figure that out >.<
Anyways, if they did have that, then they would have a buncha wasted promo points... after a while anyways.
But then again, we could always give the Amurites the 4th tier of spells =D

UU=Unique Unit, like the sidar shade. And UB=Unique Building.
I guess my Idea would be a trade off, higher power but narrow specialization.

 

[FireBlaze]

Ah. Thanks for clearing that one up =D

 

[MaxAstro]

I just went through making some changes to the Amurites for my personal mod, just to bring them a little more in line with how I think they should work and to get rid of the annoying micromanagement with Govannon. Here is what I went for (Note that the idea here is that they are meant to be "late bloomers": nothing special early game, but once they hit Arcane Lore, things will get scary):

-Swordsman changed to a new "Sword Dancer" UU that loses the 10% city attack and can't use Mithril weapons, but can cast Dance of Blades and Blur, giving it a slight edge in combat.

-Alchemy Lab replaced with School of Govannon. Same basic effects (+4 science, +10% science, 1 sage slot), but on Arcane Lore instead of Sorcery and about half the hammer cost. Schools of Govannon can only be built after Govannon is trained and require a Mage Guild. The main effect of the school is to provide the first level spell of any mana type the owner has to any living unit built in the city (Except Hawks). Any unit in a city with a School of Govannon can train at the School to learn any spells they missed out on (either from being built before the School, or newly aquired mana types).

-Champion replaced with new Spellblade UU. Spellblades are strength 5 instead of 6 and can't use Mithril Weapons. Instead of requiring Iron Working and Training Yards, they require Arcane Lore and the School of Govannon. They also have Channeling 2, allowing them to learn the second level spell of any sphere they learned at the School (Or from being upgraded from a Sword Dancer).

-Wizard UU gains the unique spell "Channel", allowing them to sacrifice their spell for the turn to restore the ability to cast to the highest level spellcaster in the stack that has casted this turn (other than themselves).

-Firebows given Spell Extension I and II (to make them still somewhat useful after Spellblades are available)

I can't speak for whether these changes are overpowered are not, but they certainly help the Amurites mid-game. Rush straight for Arcane Lore (with a pit stop at Religion and Bronze Working) will leave you with a decent military capability and the most flexible force of magic users you can possibly imagine. Once you get Schools of Govannon running, literally EVERYONE has magic of some kind, without the need for the tedious Govannon training. As an added bonus, your actual arcane units tend to be stronger: Since your Adepts automatically start with all the spells they can currently learn, you have more promotions to spend on things like combat.

Meanwhile, Spellblades and priests between the two of them almost make Wizards obsolete; both are combat-capable spellcasters. However, once you get Archmages running, Wizards suddenly become useful again: Thanks to Channel, a stack of 1 Archmage and 5 Wizards is almost as good as a stack of 6 Archmages. Govannon with Twincast backed up by a decent stack of Wizards can suddenly compete with the likes of Puppets and Eaters of Dreams... and is only 1 Archmage. Every single Archmage you have can be backed up by however many Wizards you can muster to multiply their spellcasting ability.

Overall, I have to say it's a rather small amount of changes that add rather a lot of kick to the Amurites mid to late game. I'm actually worried about it making them overpowered; I haven't been able to extensively balance test it yet. Still, overpowered is preferable to weak, in my opinion. ^_^

 

[azzedar]

unlimited archmages sounds weird. but maybe it isn't as horrible as it sounds at first glance. remember the amurites have a lot of pseudo-archmages anyway (priests&druids&...+govannon). giving them unlimited would make that micromanagement more easy. you simply go the mage-line without teching the religious things as well. and less moving around with govannon (not inevitably, if you go on less different mana spheres you may still teach them some spells to save promos)

unless you are playing long games and/or on huge maps you won't build more than 15-20 archmages anyway. but maybe just increasing the cap is a better solution.

the problem about it is that you get your hordes of (pseudo-)archmages sooner and without that much teaching. so, it would enhance the amurites mid-game abilities.

i really like the idea of racial spells. i regret the fact that most tier3 spells are summons ( in my .34 games i've always try to get letum frigus with the amurites. tier3 frost is nice. even if you don't make use of the snow terrain).

/edit:
previous post wasn't ready before i startet writing my post.
some of the melee changes sound very strong, a chan2 melee unit... maybe.
but the "channel"-ability sounds nice. maybe increasing the con... what about if every wizard that casts it damages the archmage/himself for a small amount? symbolizing that a huge amount of energy is channeled through the casters body and he can't maintain it completly.
the sheaim archmages have in fact a likewise ability, but they need cities. so it would be fair if there was a disadvantage for the amurites too.

 

[Humakty]

Amurites weak ? Is there any other civ able to spawn mages as fast as they do ? With my clan of embers I have to wait many turns before my adepts can promote, and during that time they just sit around in my cities (apart from haste, and other minor spells).
Being able to produce directly mages with fire2 or wind2 seems like a good enougth advantage during mid game, even if they could use a little something during the early game

 

[zup]

But how do you compare Amurites to Calabim, the true 'we all have magic' civ? Further, as vampires have channeling 2, they generally don't defend the stack. First of all, a stack of hasted vampires comes your way. Especially on flatland heavy maps they move fast. Then when their hawks spot your army they all summon skeletons. Now you have to hack your way through 40+ skeletons to even get to the vampires themselves (and they can just summon more). When they come to your city they all summon spectres to weaken your defenders. If they went heavy with death mana it will hurt you a lot. Assassins don't help you against them since the skeletons are weaker than their summoners (iron or mithril, makes no difference). Calabim hardly need anything but vampires. And they can have death 2 and body 2 right out of the assembly line. Just feast once in the city that built them. And further, it is not as micromanagement heavy as Govannon.

 

[Exadi]

Calabim hardly need anything but a vampire. I destroyed the Sheaim and the Khazad (well, to be fair, Hyborem was already fighting them when I finished with the Sheaim) in midgame with one vampire with Drill IV, Blitz, March (he was a demon from the lair event so he couldn't use regeneration or haste), Combat 5 and various other promotions. Later on, after promoting my high level vampires to Eidola they could take out horsemen and Hyborem with 99.9% odds. Mardero was the weakest unit in the army of around 10 that I sent to destroy Hyborem for fun after winning the religious victory by accident by destroying the Doviello, simply because he couldn't become a vampire.

 

[hbar]

MaxAstro's changes sound interesting, but I don't think the Amurites need a late-game boost. My biggest problem with playing them is running out of cash to upgrade my adepts. Why not give the Amurites a UU adept that has one extra strength, so upgrading only costs 5 gold? After all, in such a magic oriented society, they should have lots of spare robes and shoes lying around, so the costs wouldn't be as high as in other civs...

 

[brucedecatz]

On Calabim,

1. By the time they got vampires, Amurite probably has firebows. Which only goes through BW and the archery line. If both players beeline for their UUs, it is about the same time I feel.
2. Equal number of vampires and firebows, I doubt the skeleton raising vampires wins on offense since skeletons have to wait a turn, and cannot be hasted; while firebows can move on road, cast, bombard, and retreat to safety.
3. Firebows do not need to eat the city down to death to get magic promotions. 1 promotion from apprenticeship or conquest is enough to get fireballs. And firebows needs no Govannon-micromanagement.

In fact I am tempted to try a game to beeline for firebows, THEN research KoE and get the Govannon-teaching running and see how that goes.

 

[nealhunt]

In fact I am tempted to try a game to beeline for firebows, THEN research KoE and get the Govannon-teaching running and see how that goes.

I've actually started doing this most of the time. Econ, basic defense and bowyers, then double back for the magic line.

====

On Summoner trait - I don't think it's a problem by itself. It's Summoner + Puppets that's the killer combo. Keelyn + Sorcery will crush anything at similar tech levels in my experience.

 

[Humakty]

And my games showed that it is not the amurites that suffer the most, but rather the luchuirps, or other good civs. I do agree that the XP farming with calabims is sick, especially with order. In one game I had a city that could sustain at least ten feasts before showing unhappiness.
I rate the amurites in the average, there are many civs that are harder to play. Late game doviello anyone ?

 

[Caradoc]

I just went through making some changes to the Amurites for my personal mod, just to bring them a little more in line with how I think they should work and to get rid of the annoying micromanagement with Govannon.

Sounds like fun. Could you post your mods, or maybe shoot me a PM?

 

[Psycho_Ivan]

I agree with the previous statement that the Amurites are too micromanagement heavy. I love using Amurite units that are intended to be spellcasters, using Druids and the like feels... odd.

-Wizard UU gains the unique spell "Channel", allowing them to sacrifice their spell for the turn to restore the ability to cast to the highest level spellcaster in the stack that has casted this turn (other than themselves).

You could give it a limit on the number of times an Archmage can be influenced by it.

 

[FireBlaze]

Sounds like fun. Could you post your mods, or maybe shoot me a PM?

Same here, that seems pretty aweomse

 

[MaxAstro]

I'll be posting my mod mod (mod mod mod mod is more like it since it's a mod of FF+Scions, but that sounds ridiculous) some time in the near future. I'm just trying to decide if I want to wait for the next major version of FF so I can update it to that before posting it.

As far as the comments about my changes: I'm honestly more worried about priests being overpowered than Spellblades. As was mentioned, Vampires are a lot stronger than even Spellblades are now; they have higher strength, potentially Mithril weapons, and can gain XP at a truly insane rate (It's not that hard as the Calabim to set up several cities that gain 1 pop every turn, especially with Creation mana) and although they don't have the flexibility that Spellblades have, they don't need it, because they have 4 of the best spells in the game. Plus, they have the potential to become effective Archmages when Vampire Lords hit. Or actual Archmages with Lichdom.

As far as Channel, I really haven't seen it in play enough to judge its strength. It really depends on how fast the Amurites can pop out Mages. Plus, the loss of any one Archmage is magnified, since the Wizards by themselves are not nearly as useful.

At the very least, it's considerably weaker than Keelyn's puppets, but I'm well aware that that's a poor balance stick.