An idea for a new Fighting system

[moopoo]

I'll go through this in points, so it doesn't become one massive block of text

This is an idea that will hopefully encourage more non-city battles, create a system of city seiges and add a bit of realism

I read somewhere that Troops were never allowed into the City of Rome itself. This is in direct contrast to Civ, where cities become unhappy with troops there. compare this to Real life as well. we don't have troops stationed in the Adelaide CBD, I'm pretty sure it doesn't happen anywhere else

Thus, the first change in my system - Having troops stationed in a city shuts down all production. Where will the troops go, you ask? two possibilities, i guess. One is to the countries borders, where they'll hopefully form lines (OMG! Trenches!). The other is that they'll just kinda be around, on the countries countryside.

Part two. If an enemy troop is adjacent to a city (ie within the 8 squares surrounding it), the city shuts down. Moreover, he seiges whatever side he happens to be on. with 4 troops (or 4 sets of troops) one could completely seige a city. any units inside a seiged city would lose a bit of health over several turns. the amount it stops at would depend on how many sides are covered - 10% for each side.

so. We have units forming lines on their borders, the player having to prioritise on which sides he feels are most dangerous. When war is declared the walls of units face of against each other. You don't stack units coz otherwise troops'll just go around you. You have to clear out troops from around cities coz the city will be useless otherwise. If an enemy gets close to a city, you put troops in either late to keep production going as long as possible, or early to build up a fortify bonus. If early, the enemy will likely seige you. If late, the enemy must decide between attacking early before the fortify bonus can happen, or seiging and knocking down health.

This opens up for new promotions for seige resistance, increased fortify %'s and instant fortification. It also opens up for new units such as city and (the actual) praetorian guard, defensive units that don't stop city production.

what do you guys think?

 

[AluminumKnight]

Could be a interesting idea, definitely worth giving a try. I wonder if it's possible to mod this in?

 

[seZereth]

sounds nice, you should try if the AI can cope with it.

 

[woodelf]

Well worth playing with to see what you come up with.

 

[moopoo]

Errr guys I've spent the last 6 months trying to learn python (as my first programming/scripting whatever it is attempt), and i haven't even touched C++. I was hoping someone would pick the idea up. I know the chances of that are slim but yeah.

*sigh* In case this idea gets left untouched, can anyone direct me to a good C++ tutorial-type thing?

 

[moopoo]

A free program for editing and compiling the code probly wouldn't go astray either I have notepad++, will that compile? what does it mean to 'compile'?!? *cries in the corner*

 

[Gaius Octavius]

There is a free program for compiling called "Codeblocks." Follow the instructions in the "Downloading and Using the SDK" thread to get it. You will also need to download the MS Platform SDK itself, which is about 400 MB. If you have dial-up, this will be a problem for you.

 

[moopoo]

Broadband, brother. Rudd's got us on the internet revolution. I've heard horror stories about people messing with C, and losing their start bar coz they missed a set of brackets, or something. Is it really that dangerous? any way to make it less dangerous?

 

[Gaius Octavius]

The worst thing that has ever happened to me is that I've had to close Civ 4 and restart due to a crash. But if you know no C++ or any code going into it, it will be hard, although Python is very similar.

 

[moopoo]

oh really? ok. Python was and is really hard to learn for me, so that's not a huge comfort I actually have my brother's old uni textbook "C by dissection" sitting infront of me, I guess i'll have a read through that

 

[moopoo]

If anyone is interested in having a go at coding this though, by all means go for it. Let me know tho

 

[moopoo]

Am I able to use C, or do i hafta learn C++?

 

[Seven05]

The game DLL is in C++ so you need to use C++ not C. However, a good understanding of C will make C++ easier. You won't melt your PC or break anything when working with the game DLL unless you get in way over your head and try doing things the DLL isn't designed to do (and doesn't need to do) such as writing your own disk I/O routines or trying to directly manipulate memory (which won't cause any permanent damage, just stability issues). MS Visual C 2005 express is free and a bit better than Codeblocks, the IDE will have more useful functions for modding such as being able to track down all references to a specific variable, method or class and creating the 'symbols' used when evaluating crash dumps. There is a tutorial here at CF on how to compile the DLL with 2005 express, as long as you don't skip any steps or put the wrong info in the wrong place it'll work. In either case you're using the same compiler from the Visual Studio 2003 toolkit so the end result will be the same.

 

[Yakk]

Issues:

Fast commando units can take cities. I suspect that you might want to have some kind of "innate defense" to a city that has to be defeated.

An attack via a huge stack will be ridiculously effective against spread out defenders. What prevented this in the real world was a mixture of "ancient combat was linear, not quadratic in power" and "logistics is hard".

A diffuse army can mostly live off of the land by stealing from the peasants. A concentrated army requires a supply train to feed them, which is requires guarding against raids, and a level of logistic and economic power that ancient civilizations had issues with.

...

I'd also recommend a return to zones of control -- or at least, attacks of opportunity. If you move from one threatened region adjacent to a unit to another, the unit should get a free attack on your unit as you expose your flank. If the attack succeeds, you lose your movement point, and you fail to move, and you take a single hit of damage.

Naturally this doesn't apply if you move into a guarded square.

...

Sadly, all of these kind of mods require serious AI work.

 

[GeneralMatt]

ExactlyYes, the one thing I see problematic is that. As defenders rightly get bonuses, you do not need so many to defend against a slightly larger group right? What I would see happening is at the start of a war (Or previously if the human prepares) they groups all the units they feel they can spare, and immediately punch through the spread out defenders taking cities quickly, and/or slowing them down production wise.

This, to some extent really was the way it worked, but no matter how you try, 30 tanks "units"in real life would probably not even be able to fit on on square, and that is not even considering the logistical and organizational problems.

What I would like to see would be Hearts of Ironish. You would have a number, lets call it "headquarters maximum" per square. Any units over that number would become less effective. Also, the more units above that number, the less effective they all become.

This number would go up with eras and techs, and you could also send a non-stackable units (Army HQ for example) that would up that number..

So you really have to spread them out to get the maximum effect really.

Also giving all units say a 75% chance to withdraw to a square of your choice when losing on thedefence would make it harder for clean breakthroughs.

Also, I would not have troops stationed in a city totally stop production. I would give them a few unhappy faces, which slows it down all the same. And the more troops, the more unhappy faces.

The reason being that yes we do not have armies sitting in our cities all the time, but in wartime, when it is your borders being attacked, you do have garrisons in your cities.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

My thought was to limit soldiers in cities the same way they limit aircraft in BtS. So a fixed number of units can fit inside a city of a specific size. Barracks gives a +2 to the number of ground units whilst Stables gives a +2 to the number of mounted units.
I am sure that, if you went through the BtS code, it would be easy enough to adapt it to this purpose!

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[moopoo]

@ Seven05: Thanks for the bad news. *cries* C++ Looks so HARD!!!

@ Yakk:
1. The Commando issue would kinda replicate the German Blitzkrieg yeah? if so, I like it I'm all for realism

2. About the power of Stacks, this could be diffused entirely by setting up a system where A) their strength is reduced by being in a stack, much like in the Defence mod or B) The General Winter power from Rhye's and Fall, except for stacks (They lose health)

3. Zone of Control, along with Regicide and Mass Regicide, is a concept most sorely missed from Civ III, and I'd definitely put it back in.

4. The AI change is just one of the reasons I Would Really love for an experienced programmer to step in. You'd have all the credit for it

@ GeneralMatt:

1. I think my response to Yakk works for my response to the start of your reply , in fact i'm pretty sure we're in agreeance

2. I also wanna have withdrawal odds improved to the point where it's more likely a full strength unit will get out of there rather than fight to the death, for both attacking and defending units.

3. The idea between shutting down production completely is that it A) forces you to only garrison units in the city when absolutely necessary B) Encourages you to meet enemy forces in the field before you have to garrison.
A system based on an unhappiness measure would be rendered meaningless by a player able to get enough happiness. Again, it would also allow for units like the praetorian guard.

@ Aussie Lurker: I don't like the idea of imposing a limit in that way, as it doesn't feel realistic. In fact, in regards to airports, I feel a much better way would be to have a cost for having extra air units in a city, rather than imposing a flat limit.

@ anyone : Any thoughts, comments, suggestions on the seige idea?

 

[GeneralMatt]

3. The idea between shutting down production completely is that it A) forces you to only garrison units in the city when absolutely necessary B) Encourages you to meet enemy forces in the field before you have to garrison.
A system based on an unhappiness measure would be rendered meaningless by a player able to get enough happiness. Again, it would also allow for units like the praetorian guard.

The thing is, it is forcing you to go out of your way to get Smiles. What I was thinking was maybe two unhappy faces per unit, so it may be worthwhile garrisoning one or two units in war time to keep enemy infiltrators and paratroopers at bay, but if you put even 10 units in a city, that could shut down a lvl 20 city effectively..

 

[moopoo]

good point. and it would be easier to code, and easier for AI to swallow...

you've converted me

 

[black baron]

The thing is, it is forcing you to go out of your way to get Smiles. What I was thinking was maybe two unhappy faces per unit, so it may be worthwhile garrisoning one or two units in war time to keep enemy infiltrators and paratroopers at bay, but if you put even 10 units in a city, that could shut down a lvl 20 city effectively..

you could also try to add a building (like a fort or something) that would reduce the unhappiness. although it may make it harder you could also try to make it so that the unhappiness from the military could only be fixed by specific buildings ,events, civics, etc.

you could also try adding crusaders which can work as non defensive but still cause no penalty if of same state religion

ps this idea has so many options that can be exploited