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An in-depth proposition on how to fix Protective: (Please read and comment!)


I agree they need a tourism bonus some time after they obsolete regularly.

As for when they are active. Perhaps have castles give 'free' defenders that can only defend. Sort of like scouts except they cost no maintenance or the like.

The free units I would base on the population of the city they are in[such as 1 free unit for every 1 population of the city]. Thus a large city would have more conscripted defenses from population than a smaller city. I would also make it so that these units can NOT gain any xp. In addition if they are killed you would lose some population[I would make it one population for every two killed].

Castle Garrison
Archer
Strength 5
1 first strike
+50% city defense
+25% vs Melee
double effect from defenses
starts with 2 xp
requires castle

If castles came at fuedalism+construction this would make the Castle Garrison only available after longbows are out. And they are weaker than longbows in several ways. However, without siege equipment the Castle Garrison is just about impossible to take out.

As another buff to castles we could make it so that castles reduce collateral damage done to units in the city. Maybe reduce collateral by 25% or so. Also of course castles should be EXPENSIVE. Those things should be built with any sort of ease.

Along with their current bonuses this would make castles, at least for me, quite a bit more valuable. And it would boost protective as well since castles would be more favorable[and two free promotions is quite valauble for a unit that can't gain any xp is a good thing].



Of course this is only one idea. I would like to see castles how they were made irl. Often times armies if they could afford to do so would just ignore the castled defenses. It was too difficult unless the position was VERY important to the invader. Between the free defenders that benefit twice from the defenses and the reduced collateral and bombard it would mean conquering a castled defense would likely take more than one turn.
 
I don't know if Protective needs to be improved but castles certainly do. They have been improved since BtS, but not in a way that's really helpfull. Castles still are pretty much useless by the time you can build them, mainly because of the *except gunpowder units* rule.

Maybe that's just it. Skip that rule and there you have the new and improved castle you've been waiting for. I mean, so what if a musketman, rifleman or even infantry can use gunpowder? Does this automatically nullify such a huge defense building as a castle? I think not. Just let only air and armored units ignore wall/castle defenses and the life span of a castle is greatly increased. Maybe add a new tech: Dynamite and with it a new promotion: Explosives expert which would render walls and castles pretty much obsolete by then.

Next, castles should not generate +1 trade routes and then get obsolete. They should have gotten a direct + commerce / gold modifier (acting as a market in their time) which would not get obsolete (because of tourism later on).
 
Talking about castles, made me realise a not so unusual occurance in my last game. I managed to get economics before engineering, and thus obsoleted the Castle before I could even build any!

Which does go to show, that persuing a "monetary" techline can give the Castle a non existant timescale. And what else does engineering itself unlock? Pikes (oooh....big deal most of the time, trebs (not what they once were, and if you're not planning on taking any cities, cats are stupidly far better for "splash damage" defence), and extra road mvmt, which ok is always useful)....

So Engineering for Castles?

Nope, too late.
 
If they bring Civ 3 (ish) stack attack castles could have a increase in units for the city.
 
There are a couple of positive aspects for Castles as they are:
1. They do give culture (+1)
2. They do have life after Economics, not only the culture, but the defense bonus is not obsoleted.
I definately would like to see the Castle's life extended to Corporation (since you can then retain the +1 trade route).
To my mind even with its few positive aspects, I still rarely build them due to there short life span.
 
I agree that castles do need improving slightly. I like the idea of obseleting them at corporation and I also like the idea of buffing both castles & serfdom at the same time. Only a small increase tieing them both together would be needed

+1 :commerce: from farms if running the "serfdom" civic

was mentioned earlier.

I dont think theres any need to make any changes to forts & protective is an ok trait as it is
 
Here are my list of suggestions:

1. Walls and castles should set a limit on how low a siege unit can reduce a city's defence: A catapult should not be able to reduce a walled city's defence to lower than 20%; a trebuchet to 10% and cannons to 0%. For cities with castles, catapults should be limited to 30%, trebuchets to 20%, cannons to 10% and artillery to 0%.

2. Cavalry should get a sally bonus to their attack (say, 15%) if they started their turn in a fort or a city with a castle.

3. Castles should provide their defense bonus against gunpowder units too, unless the attacker has researched Military Science.

4. A castle should make it impossible to pillage resources in the six squares closest to the city.

5. A castle should make it impossible for a privateer or a caravel from a civilization without open borders to to enter any coastal square bordering the city.
 
Here are my list of suggestions:

1. Walls and castles should set a limit on how low a siege unit can reduce a city's defence: A catapult should not be able to reduce a walled city's defence to lower than 20%; a trebuchet to 10% and cannons to 0%. For cities with castles, catapults should be limited to 30%, trebuchets to 20%, cannons to 10% and artillery to 0%.

2. Cavalry should get a sally bonus to their attack (say, 15%) if they started their turn in a fort or a city with a castle.

3. Castles should provide their defense bonus against gunpowder units too, unless the attacker has researched Military Science.

4. A castle should make it impossible to pillage resources in the six squares closest to the city.

5. A castle should make it impossible for a privateer or a caravel from a civilization without open borders to to enter any coastal square bordering the city.

All interesting ideas... that could be applied to forts as well.

#4 did you mean eight rather than six ?
 
* Has anyone come up with a general concensus based on all the points in this thread? One easily put into a person's own custom game?

* One thing to keep in mind is the AI cannot think like we do. Some of the changes listed would require extra AI routines so maybe we should stick with ideas that the AI can currently exploit?

Forts:

What do you think about forts costing 2x-3x as much time to build and offering a higher defensive bonus? Right now, I see a fort in a large game and go "hu-hum".

To add a zone of control or the ability to build in neutral territory - would that be hard to mod in?
 
This is where I see things:

1. Earlier Availability.
Feudalism + Construction is the consensus.

2. Later Obsolescence.
Two schools of thought here: either leave it in the same branch of the tech tree but push it back to corporation or else move it to somewhere in the Gunpowder/Chemistry/Steel line.

3. Buff the Bonuses.
Still wide open, lots of options here. We can increase the culture/espionage bonuses and/or introduce new elements, including civic-based synergies. My very limited modding skills cause me to prefer simple changes!

4. Increased Cost.
200 seems to be the consensus for now, depending on which bonuses are adopted.

Here's my proposal:

Castle (Requires Construction and Feudalism)
Cost: 200 :hammers:
+3 :culture:
+2 :espionage:
can turn 1 Citizen into Spy
+1 :traderoute:
+2 :) with Hereditary Rule (or -25% war weariness)
1 free specialist with Serfdom (or +1 :food: per Farm, but it would have to obsolete before Biology)
+50% Defense (Except vs Gunpowder-based units)
-25% damage to defenses from bombardment (Except vs Gunpowder-based units)
Requires Walls
Double Production Speed for Protective Leaders
Double Production Speed with Stone
Obsoletes with Corporation (Except Defensive Bonus and :culture: )
 
Perhaps controversially, I think it should lose the +1 trade route. I can see Castles as way of administering trade, but this would reduce it, not increase it.

The free specialist, based on the idea of a Lord's court, would I feel gell better with Hered rule, and some drafting ability with Serfdom, or a reduction in war wearyness.
 
How about a Special World Wonder that requires you to construct 3 Castles in order to build it?

Although the wonder would need a powerful effect (not overpowered) just enough for you to want to build it in most games like the Great Library, maybe the special effect is -50% upgrade cost.
 
armoredcrawler - thanks for the wrap-up. It'd be kind of cool if people use that format for their final "castle" suggestions.

BTW - anyone konw which file I'd edit to change the fort properties (defense and time to build)?

How about a Special World Wonder that requires you to construct 3 Castles in order to build it?

Although the wonder would need a powerful effect (not overpowered) just enough for you to want to build it in most games like the Great Library, maybe the special effect is -50% upgrade cost.

Neat idea, but I'd say no. Unless someone does a lot of extra mod coding, that would only help the human player and hurt the AI you're playing against.
 
OK, if you can bear with me on this post, I'll explain some of the consolidated ideas taking a minimalist aproach for right now. The changes suggested should be easily moddable and I'll try and test it. (changes from default are red)

Castle (Requires Construction and Feudalism)
Cost: 200 :hammers:
+1 :culture:
+2 :espionage:
+1 :traderoute:
+1 :gold: / farm while running serfdom
+50% Defense (Except vs Gunpowder-based units)
-25% damage to defenses from bombardment (Except vs Gunpowder-based units)
Requires Walls
Double Production Speed for Protective Leaders
Double Production Speed with Stone
Obsoletes with Corporation (Except Defensive Bonus and :culture: )

Now the changes don't stop there. In every game I've had, Castles weren't the only item to barely get used... Knights are obsolete as soon as they're founded, and Serfdom was never used (whereas the AI and myself found every other civil trait had its turn). Therefore the serfdom addition as noted above. Right now I don't agree with adding even more culture to the Castle since it will be generating culture forever and earlier.

To make the Middle ages actually represent something I'm going to also:

* Increase the Research cost of Banking by +300.

* Increase the Research cost of Nationalism, Printing Press, Education, and Gunpowder by +500.

This should have several cascading effects. Since the Civ cannot get Banking as early, gold continues to be a restrictive resource. Serfdom's castle bonus comes into play more.

Increasing the research cost of the other traits listed will delay the onset of the next gaming cycle and give the Knight some actual significance before the rush of gunpowder units. Personally I hated the fact as soon as a knight started running around, Musketmen appeared in no time.

Now... I just need help making this trait work in a mod: +1 :gold: / farm while running serfdom with castle present
 
Im prob gonna try something similar although I think I am going to stick with Engineering as the req tech.
 
I keep it as it is and have it such that whilst a cities defences are >0 no unit (except siege units) can attack the city unless they have the city raider promotion.
 
Right now there's no descriptor for +1 anything for "Buildings" under "Civic". So for now, I can't see any way to link the Castle to anything but happiness...
 
I really like the idea of -25% war weariness from castles. Then, you can obsolete Castles with Constitution, and replace them with Jails.
 
This thread is far more to do with Castles now than the Protective trait. Methinks we doth need a new topic my liege, entitled "Castles"...........
 
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