An Open Inquiry Into The Tech Tree

[Praetyre]

This mod has by far one of the most complex and broad ranging tech trees I've ever seen, rivalled only by the sorely underrated Call to Power series. It's sheer scope is one of the biggest things that got me into C2C in the first place, and I look forward to seeing a greater fleshing out of the second C thanks to the talents of MrAzure, even if my mind is baffled by talk of transapient sophonts or other such ontological transubstantiation. I offer these as honest queries and constructive criticism to provide an answer to things that have been gnawing in my skull about certain technologies and what they represent for a while. So without further ado;

Naming Questions
1. What does Nomadic Lifestyle refer to? The first migrations of early hominids out of Africa (1,800,000 BC), the similar exodus of Homo sapiens (125,000 years ago), or an even earlier state where hominids or humans transitioned from an Edenic Golden Age lifestyle of living off fruits and berries (not even having thought of gathering them at this stage) to a harsher lifestyle that involved moving and gathering resources from location to location?
2. What about Gathering? Would it be a lifestyle based around stockpiling foods rather than always eating them on the spot? Because such behaviour can be observed in many birds, let alone primates. It would make more sense to me if it connotated a gender dimorphic hunter gatherer lifestyle, but even that has it's precedence in the rest of the animal kingdom.
3. I am currently operating under the assumption that Cooperation refers to social structures which are bonded by any factor other than close blood relations; the game starting with "the family", this tech bringing "the village" (or the nomadic group as technology permits) and Tribalism "the tribe" mentioned in the classic intro to Civ IV.
5. What does Hunting represent as a distinct technology from Persistence Hunting, Trapping and Tracking? Is it the usage of tools that is the differentiating factor? (i.e. the spears Ice Age humans used to herd their quarry, typically a mammoth, down into tar pits from cliffsides?
6. How are Ideograms distinct from Petroglyphs?
7. The exact distinctions between Masonry and Construction are decidedly unclear; the technology for crafting the Pyramids and Stonehenge is clearly different, but is it truly the physical technology rather than the culture and the scientia that delinates the Pyramids from the Pantheon?
8. Similarly to 6 and 7, is it complexity or material that distinguishes the likes of the Venus of Willendorf from Sculpture?
9. Code of Laws is very ambiguous. It uses the Ten Commandments as it's image and sources it's quote to Hammurabi, yet Hammurabi's Code requires Dualism and it comes well after these roughly contemporaneus works.
10. Surely Calendar would date back to Sumerian days? Or is that covered by Stargazing?
11. What precisely is Cloud Patterns and how does it differ from Agriculture, Calendar or Stargazing?
12. Ditto for Astrology

Placing Questions
Leaving the Prehistoric alone, as I know that's a touchy subject and DH and johny smith have said most of what I want to say anyway... Firstly, and perhaps most importantly, what time period is Ancient meant to cover? This is relevant to a modmod I'm working on, as well as my soundtrack pack; I'm unclear as to whether it is the Neolithic, Chalcolithic, Bronze Age or some combination thereof. Both the Chalcolithic and Bronze Age are merely two x columns wide in the tree, while the Iron Age gets at least 6, with merely 2 left over for the 0-500 AD period, and nothing for the post Alexandrian/pre Imperial Roman age.

Meanwhile, the Medieval Age gives 2 columns to the Early Middle Ages (Feudalism-Heraldry) and to the High Middle Ages (Heraldry-Chivalry) and 3 to the late (Chivalry-Gunpowder). Of course, this is all rather Eurocentric, but it is thought by some scholars that the Renaissance was triggered by the arrival of a Chinese trading fleet into Venice, and one can find parallels to the way of chivalry in concepts such as bushido in Japan.

The Renaissance and the Enlightenment each get 6 columns, though with one blank for the Enlightenment. The Industrial Revolution/mid-late Victorian age gets a whopping 9 columns, with WWI coming in at Industrialism to scoop up 4 and the last 2 columns getting WWII in at Mechanized Warfare (a scale that actually works out remarkablt well, given WWII will cover 10 years and WWI 30, versus the previous age's 60).

Beyond this, I have no queries or major issues; Modern and beyond have been solidly planned out and the efforts of MrAzure and potentially the Armada to Ascension team should smooh out any wrinkles in the post-nuclear ages.

On more minor notes;
1. Scavenging is believed by some anthropologists to have been the first way early hominids acquired their food. Is C2C going for the aforementioned eat-the-berries-as-they-fall approach?
2. Similarly, Persistence Hunting is thought to have been the first form of hunting unique to hominids, which might raise some interests among the Cambrian to Cosmos team.
3. Tool Making dates to same said early hominid period.
4. Raft Building dates to 40,000-70,000 BC, so perhaps a more direct link to Simple Wood Working would be in order, dating issues aside.
5. The earliest form of Candle Making was practiced by the Qin Dynasty of China (221-206 BC), making it a better candidate for the mid-Classical period.
6. Alphabet dates back to Writing in Sumeria (Ancient), assuming one takes an alphabet to be a non ideographic/pictographic languistic categorical system. I'm no philologist, though, so I'm open to correction on this one.
7. The same period gave us Mathematics in the form of complex metrology, dating back to at least 3000 BC.
8. The earliest recorded Monarchy was Sumerian as well, though with some decidedly mythical dates for it's earliest kings.
9. Wasn't Road Building more of an Imperial Roman (and thus mid-Classical) development, as a national system distinct from the roads provided with The Wheel?
10. This is perhaps one I should be addressing to myself with my fanciful notions of what the eras represent, but Iron Working was a development of 1300 BC in the Ancient Near East and 1200 BC in Europe and India.
11. Glass Blowing's earliest records go back to 50 BC, so as with Candle Making...
12. Shouldn't Fire Brigades also be a mid-Classical tech, considering their prevalence in ancient Rome?
13. This is perhaps more of a "meaning" question or one better suited for discussion in my building plan thread, but if City Planning is meant to represent the kind of advanced civic infrastructure possessed by the Roman Republic, shouldn't the housing buildings associated with it be moved back to Masonry, given the existence of polytiered social stratification in housing dates back at least to Ancient Egypt, if not Sumer?
14. I remember Children of the Nile showing that Ancient Egypt had an Aristocracy outside of it's royal family, but I've no ide as to the accuracy of this.
15. Wouldn't Horse Breeding (assuming it means for aristocratic and military purposes) date back to the Bronze Age, at the very least?
16. Concrete dates back to Ancient Egypt, and natural formations of it have been found dating back hundreds of millions of years. Unless there's meant to be a distinguishing mark between it and Masonry, rather than being about the material itself?
17. Insurance, to my great surprise, appears to be placed too late in the three, not 3 eras too early, as forms of it date back to 3000 BC in Babylon and China.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Some times you just have to start somewhere which is why there is a Nomadic Lifestyle.

I have argued on and of about gathering and scavenging being the same tech. they are split into two for game play with one referring to plants and the other to animals. there were just too many things on the tech and linking to the tech if it was just one tech.

Persistence Hunting needs no tools per se, it is about the fact that humans sweat and animals don't. basically means that a human can chase an animal to death.

 

[Hydromancerx]

1. More or less the act of moving with the seasons, rather than staying put in your ancestral territory.

2. This is all about identifying flora. And unlocking them on the map.

3. It been known that Chimps have a hard time cooperating with each other. Humans too can be quite selfish. Having family groups as well as individuals work together is a big thing. In short one can live amongst others but only when they work together can things become productive.

4. Where is #4?

5. Persistence Hunting is chasing down an animal until it dies of exhaustion. You not not really need any tools for that. Hunting is basically actively going after animals with weapons and not necessarily running them down. Trapping is using traps such as snare traps to catch prey without having to be there. Tracking is using tracks and game trails to find were prey is. Hunting Tactics is using War-like skills to take down large game or even large amounts of game such as chasing Bison to fall of a cliff or trap prey in a box canyon.

6. That's more of MrAzures territory. He explained that one is basically cave paintings and carving with pictures while Ideograms uses symbols, but are not quite wiring yet. Such as a picture of a bird may not mean the bird it may mean flying.

7. Masonry is the beginning of brick working. Construction involves things like bridges and uses of mechanical devices such as treadmill cranes. Note both of these are vanilla techs.

8. Sculpture is the advance of stone carving techniques. Its the difference of the Venus of Willendorf from Venus de Milo.

9. I thought it was the act of formally writing and enforcing written laws.

10. Calendar is having more accurate calendars than in the past. Being able to extrapolate dates far into the furniture such as with the Mayan Calendar. And yes Stargazing, Sundial, etc, techs cover the early calendars.

11. Cloud Patters is known the types of clouds and what they mean. Being able to predict the weather just from the type of cloud formation (people even had hard time doing this today).

12. Astrology covers things like the Zodiacs, Tarot Cards, Birth Stones, compatibility of couples based on their signs, etc.

Placing Questions

The tree is not a literal timeline of Earth's history. But more a collection of techs that fit in the general time frame of that era. Since one can play as any number of civs its not made to follow a specific timeline. Likewise the techs locations are based more upon what their requirements are and less about when they happened in Europe, Asia or any other place. This is also why say the American based units come earlier on the tree despite them being historically later. If left alone one could assume the American tribes and civs would eventually reach the technological levels that say the Europeans and Asian civs did.

Lastly we do still have quite a bit still left from RoM/AND and some are that way because of Zappra and Afforess. Which I though was well done.

1. This is all about identifying animals and knowing what is good to eat. Is that bug poisonous? Will that animal kill me if I get to close?

2. Again like I said above much of the eras are generalized based on the techs and not what historically happened. Thus most hominid stuff got merged into the early part of the tree.

3. More based on the mechanic of the Raft unit. Again stop trying to pin down specific dates.

Ok I am stopping ...

The tech tree is not a timeline. Do not pin down specific dates for things. Its all based on the tech that came before it. Basically asking the question if I have A and B then I can now make C. Can C be done with the game mechanics? If so then the tech is made.

In short we have inherited the tech tree from RoM/AND, we have done our best to improve upon what was already there since re-doing it from scratch would effect so many other things in the mod (civics, units, buildings, wonders, other techs, etc). Its not perfect but overall I am happy with how it has evolved.

No offense Praetyre but with this and your huge building redo list you have basically questioned everything I have helped make in the mod.

I am now wondering if all this time I did such a crappy job and that's why you feel you need to fix it all.

 

[Thunderbrd]

The tree is very nicely arranged in the beginning of the game to adhere to a wonderful strategic balance and evolutionary theory. It also incidentally shows just how out of place Sumeria was in the scheme of human development and what a sudden quantum leap must have taken place around 3k BC for civilization to suddenly spring into being with astrology, highly advanced mathematics, knowledge of the solar system that exceeded our knowledge until just this last century, advanced systems of government (Monarchy), the first written and enforced laws, writing itself, star charts, calenders, accounting practices, religion, advanced warfare tools and strategies, and so on. Its impossible to show these techs being achieved in a rational order leading to Sumerian age knowledge, much of which was vastly set back due to the Black Wind event that destroyed Sumeria, scattering its people and its knowledge across Asia, Europe and into Africa. So yes, we can point out how many achievements would've been had by then but not so easy to create a replica that fits for Civ on the tech tree. The Classical age would hardly have had any real achievements to note if we didn't consider that many technologies the Sumerians already possessed had to be re-discovered thereafter.

So all in all, kudos for pointing out a lot of these issues Praetyre, and Kudos to Hydro for establishing such a cunning plot of tech paths that make for great tough strategic decisions for players to navigate.

 

[Praetyre]

1. More or less the act of moving with the seasons, rather than staying put in your ancestral territory.

That makes sense, thank you for the clarification.

2. This is all about identifying flora. And unlocking them on the map.

I thought that was Herbalism? Or are we talking exclusively nutritionary flora rather than medicinal or otherwise non-food flora (for lack of a more formal term).

4. Where is #4?

I wish I could say my Sinophilia and general affinity for Asiatic cultures has caught up with me, but it's a pure typo.

The tree is not a literal timeline of Earth's history. But more a collection of techs that fit in the general time frame of that era. Since one can play as any number of civs its not made to follow a specific timeline. Likewise the techs locations are based more upon what their requirements are and less about when they happened in Europe, Asia or any other place. This is also why say the American based units come earlier on the tree despite them being historically later. If left alone one could assume the American tribes and civs would eventually reach the technological levels that say the Europeans and Asian civs did.

That's fair enough, and I can see where you are coming from on the tech placement as a whole. But I do wonder whether Sedentary Lifestyle should be a bottleneck tech, given the existence of societies like the Huns and Mongols with mid-Medieval technology, and how these technologies historically evolved in such a manner to begin with, or how Iron Working and advanced philosophy were concurrently developed respectively among Europe, India and the Middle East and among China and Greece.

Lastly we do still have quite a bit still left from RoM/AND and some are that way because of Zappra and Afforess. Which I though was well done.

You still need to get around to removing Global Governance, though

1. This is all about identifying animals and knowing what is good to eat. Is that bug poisonous? Will that animal kill me if I get to close?

2. Again like I said above much of the eras are generalized based on the techs and not what historically happened. Thus most hominid stuff got merged into the early part of the tree.

Merged? Was there some plan for a hominid era previously?

No offense Praetyre but with this and your huge building redo list you have basically questioned everything I have helped make in the mod.

I am now wondering if all this time I did such a crappy job and that's why you feel you need to fix it all.

Your jobs aren't crappy at all; we just have different approaches to design philosophy. Most of the time, I'm in full concordance with you on "more is more" and biggening design philosophy, and my building project is only meant to expand our resource system to a deeper level; your buildings actual benefits remain almost entirely unchanged. Similarly, I have no complaints past the Medieval age as far as techs go; Industrial and Modern are extremely solid and historical and MrAzure looks set to bring that same high standard of quality and fidelity to the transhuman and galactic eras too. Not all of my comments are intended as criticism, merely honest curiosity about ambiguously named techs, which could perhaps be given names more clearly delineating what they are and what they represent.

The tree is very nicely arranged in the beginning of the game to adhere to a wonderful strategic balance and evolutionary theory. It also incidentally shows just how out of place Sumeria was in the scheme of human development and what a sudden quantum leap must have taken place around 3k BC for civilization to suddenly spring into being with astrology, highly advanced mathematics, knowledge of the solar system that exceeded our knowledge until just this last century, advanced systems of government (Monarchy), the first written and enforced laws, writing itself, star charts, calenders, accounting practices, religion, advanced warfare tools and strategies, and so on.

You are assuming the Sumerians only date to 3000 BC; ignoring their own early kingships and pre and protodynastic Egypt. You are also ignoring Catalhoyuk, Jericho and the temple systems built by the proto-Maltans in around the very early Neolithic. I can see why you find the Neolithic-Bronze Age jump difficult; I myself sometimes have a tough time picturing life in the Chalcolithic, the closest thing springing to mind being Conan the Barbarian and the Scorpion King. But when you approach it from an anthropological perspective, it's really quite simple; villages based on elder and religious caste systems reach a critical mass to become towns and cities that dominate other, smaller entities sufficiently to take the mantle of king, much as Chinese aristocrats took over as Emperors in dynasties under the Mandate of Heaven. It appears inexplicable because our knowledge of the Bronze Age is extremely poor; even civilizations as recent as that of the Minoans and the Sea Peoples are as shrouded in myth and legend as they were during the time of Homer.

Its impossible to show these techs being achieved in a rational order leading to Sumerian age knowledge, much of which was vastly set back due to the Black Wind event that destroyed Sumeria, scattering its people and its knowledge across Asia, Europe and into Africa. So yes, we can point out how many achievements would've been had by then but not so easy to create a replica that fits for Civ on the tech tree. The Classical age would hardly have had any real achievements to note if we didn't consider that many technologies the Sumerians already possessed had to be re-discovered thereafter.

You are ignoring the technological and societal advancement exhibited by the Egyptians, Indus Valley Civilization/Harappans and Olmecs, to name a few; let alone the later Assyrians, Minoans, Mycenaeans and the Xia and Shang Dynasties of China. Also, "barbarian" Europe wasn't oogaa booga country by any means; look up the Germanic bog road system or Europa Barbarorum if you want to get a better idea of how the likes of the Aedui and Arverni federations compared to their Hellenic contemporaries in the mid-Classical age.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I thought that was Herbalism? Or are we talking exclusively nutritionary flora rather than medicinal or otherwise non-food flora (for lack of a more formal term).

Yeah Gathering is mostly about food and simple things (such as gathering wood) the Herbalism is specifically for healing things such as herbs. Note that Natropathy takes it a step beyond that. This is why Berries and Mushrooms give a in the beginning and then are canceled out by the at herbalism. Gathering is knowing where and when the fruit will ripen more or less.

You still need to get around to removing Global Governance, though

Yeah I keep forgetting.

Merged? Was there some plan for a hominid era previously?

Well RoH (Rise of Homos) I though involved stuff from that. However it was put in long before that merging SO's Prehistoric NWA mod with stuff I wanted to make for HAND. Also if the "Nomadic Start" stuff is made it will make a little more sense on why its there.

Your jobs aren't crappy at all; we just have different approaches to design philosophy. Most of the time, I'm in full concordance with you on "more is more" and biggening design philosophy, and my building project is only meant to expand our resource system to a deeper level; your buildings actual benefits remain almost entirely unchanged. Similarly, I have no complaints past the Medieval age as far as techs go; Industrial and Modern are extremely solid and historical and MrAzure looks set to bring that same high standard of quality and fidelity to the transhuman and galactic eras too. Not all of my comments are intended as criticism, merely honest curiosity about ambiguously named techs, which could perhaps be given names more clearly delineating what they are and what they represent.

Its ok I was just having a bad day today. Your huge list has been on my mind and I am dreading changing it all. Not because its bad, but because its a lot of work. And its not like I can say "you go chnage it" because I really want to comb through each one and make sure it make sense both from a logic standpoint but a game mechanics standpoint as well as fitting with the other buildings, units, etc. I also tend to forget that you guys might not know what I was trying to represent or why a building is the way it is. While there are some placeholder buildings (such as the Electronics store hopeully will have more types of electronic resources to sell later) most are done with planning that takes months (mostly because I am slow to make them).

In short much of what i imagined RoM/AND to be has been made and explored. However there is a still much more to make and experiment with. Also the fact we can do so much more in the way of code and personal skills is great! Some things like the Galactic Era I just had to believe that eventually we would be able to do it, even if I did not know how to do it at that time. Even now the ideas are solidifying and coming true. I guess that proves that if you think big you can do anything. Especially when you team up with such talented people on the C2C team.