An opinion on the new Social Policy system

StStutter

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Many people seem to be concerned that the new social policies will offer a much simpler system than the civics used in civ 4 because one won’t have to “choose” between benefits. Nay sayers are worried that if you can get some advantages from both autocratic and democratic branches, for example, that one could simply accumulate all advantages eliminating any need for strategy or planning. To the contrary, I imagine the social policy system adding an entirely new level of depth to empire planning. If there are 10 total branches and one need complete 6 of them for a cultural victory, then obtaining 60% of ALL policies is assumed to be a large number. So let’s assume that a balanced play style, neither war mongering or extremely peaceful, one in which the player does not focus on obtaining entire branches but rather selects policies based on their situation to improve their score (in other words, the overall strength of their empire), will unlock at most 25 of these policies by the end of the game. Therefore there is no worry that a civilization could gain all available policies.

Each time a player must select a policy, or a new advantage to give their empire, I believe several different factors will weigh in their decision.

A player must decide which of the minimum of 10 policies (more if each branch ‘branches out’) will suit their playstyle best (ex. In civ 4 cottage economy -> universal suffrage; specialist economy -> representation). For every 1 policy a player invests their hard earned culture points on, they are neglecting to invest in 9 others. In civ 4, when a player decided to switch civics, the choice was between their current civic and the new one. One would sacrifice their current benefit to gain a different benefit. In civ 5, one will have to sacrifice the possible benefit of any of the other policies for the one they purchase. In the short term, it would work much like the civ4 tech tree does (Bronze Working for quick chop and to reveal bronze or Animal Husbandry to build a pasture on those pigs and to reveal horses?).

Then there is the long term planning. One will have the option of sacrificing early military power for example, to invest in policies which may not be as beneficial immediately but are prerequisites for a policy that could prove essential later in the game (or save the cculture points until the appropriate techs are researched). In civ 4, since there were no civics prerequisites (other than techs) the best choice would always be for the immediate benefit.

Finally, if there is no option such as revolutions for transferring spent points, it will be important to plan ahead. One will have to plan the expansion of their empire far in advance. Are you planning on sitting tight until your UU, then making a quick military expansion? Then you better invest in policies from the start that will come into play as your UU does, giving that extra oomph to your army or production in that specific era.



I know this post is the Great Wall of Text, but one final point. I’ve seen many concerns about civs being a liberal dictatorship, or other paradoxical governments. But I don’t see having policies in freedom and autocracy that way. If I have a full freedom branch with several autocratic policies, this doesn’t necessarily mean a paradox. I am simply a democracy with slightly more power lying in the hands of the country’s leader. For example, Canada and the U.S. are both democracies, but in the U.S., the head of state has much more power than he does in Canada (such as being the sole person able to declare war). Both countries could be represented in civ5 (or how I imagine it to be) as civs with every freedom policy, but one has a couple more policies than the other in the autocracy branch. The policies will be more flexible, allowing for the imagination to create very a very specific situation.
 
Nay sayers are worried that if you can get some advantages from both autocratic and democratic branches, for example, that one could simply accumulate all advantages eliminating any need for strategy or planning

This is a mischaracterization of the complaint.

I totally see that there will be strategic choices over which paths to pursue. 10 paths means a lot of choices.

My complaint is primarily a logical/immersion one; I hate the idea that I could simultaneously get the benefits from running logically contradictory policies.

Policies in a logical sense are a choice; I can have this policy, or that one. Running more and more policies at once doesn't make me better off.

In a gameplay sense it will probably work fine.

But I can see that there could have been systems which would do both; have similar gameplay advantages, but still have some kind of meaningful excludability, where some combinations of policies couldn't be run simultaneously, no matter how much culture you had to afford them.

But I don’t see having policies in freedom and autocracy that way.
I don't think your characterization here makes sense.
A country with power shared between a leader and the people should get neither the benefits from autocracy nor democracy, not both.

The US is not an autocracy in any real sense of the world. An autocracy is like a dictatorship. The American president has very little personal power. He can't levy taxes. He can't declare wars (though this has been weakened over recent decades). He can't pass laws.
The only direct powers he has are military and in appointing civil service heads and supreme court justices (though many of these must be senate-confirmed).

If you are "just a little bit autocratic" then it makes no logical sense that you would get the full benefits of autocracy (eg having a massive public propaganda department, or censored press

Obviously we can't talk in specifics since we don't know the details yet. It could be that the specific policies inside the trees do not end up being mututally contradictory (though I think doing this means that we will be missing a lot of interesting policies - monarchy, democracy, free press, censorship, etc.)

But imagine for example that the commerce tree had a "mercantilism" policy, and then a free trade policy.
Its just not possible to run both of these at once.

Anyway, we'll have to wait for more info.
 
A country with power shared between a leader and the people should get neither the benefits from autocracy nor democracy, not both.

Right I understand this. But this is only the case once both branches have been completely filled, otherwise we are not getting all the benefits of being an autocracy, only a few (however many policies from that branch we have purchased).

And I apologize if I just made you read all that for nothing:blush:. I thought I'd read about people complaining that the cumulative effects eliminate strategic choices:confused:
 
But this is only the case once both branches have been completely filled
Not at all.

If you purchased (hypothetically) a Censorship policy, then you'd get all of the benefits of that, even if you simultaneously run a free speech policy from the Liberty tree.

Contradictions could happen at the policy level, not only at the full tree level.

We don't know most of the individual policies yet, but many of the interesting candidates are likely to have this kind of potential for contradiction.

I thought I'd read about people complaining that the cumulative effects eliminate strategic choices
It eliminates *some* strategic choices; there's no scope for "will I run commerce policy A, or commerce policy B". Because you can do both, and you might need A in order to get to B.

It limits your strategic choice to which of the 10 options you'll pursue.

But 10 is still a pretty decent number of fields to choose from.
 
...
My complaint is primarily a logical/immersion one; I hate the idea that I could simultaneously get the benefits from running logically contradictory policies.
...
Policies in a logical sense are a choice; I can have this policy, or that one. Running more and more policies at once doesn't make me better off.
...
The US is not an autocracy in any real sense of the world.

Ahriman, I do see your concern. While I'm not particularly worried at this point, but I understand the logical break if you are able to enact contradictory polices. Maybe there will be limits, such as advancements in one path closes another path to you, or penalties that limit the benefits of other paths. But we simply don't have enough info at this time.

The US has enacted many polices over the years, some are even contradictory in some ways. Perhaps we see the scope in too large a view, such as "Police State" as a policy, when maybe a better example would be the "Patriot Act" as a policy, or "Farm Subsidy", or "Universal Healthcare" as policies in other branches. They are not exclusive, but give different bonuses. You only have 200 notes to spend, so which one you need now...

POTUS has more powers than you give credit. He is our head of state, which is why we are a Republic. Much have been done in recent years on the orders of POTUS.
 
Not at all.

If you purchased (hypothetically) a Censorship policy, then you'd get all of the benefits of that, even if you simultaneously run a free speech policy from the Liberty tree.

No one says that this could be possible ;).

Maybe some autocracy policies will require that you switch back from to liberal policies in another branch.
Did i already say somewhere that we don't really know anything about social policies?
 
I pretty much agree 100% with the OP.

One thing that is important to keep in mind is that the Civ4 civics system was built on a model of competing values, but the civ5 system is built on a model of additive values. Thus, if the designers have any sense at all, they are not going to name one policy "censorship" and the other one "free press". They are going to describe the policies in ways that would allow them to be active at the same time.

I can see how some people have a problem with Autocracy and Liberty being active at the same time, but it's my guess that Autocracy simply means having a powerful executive in charge, and Liberty means giving people lots of individual rights. The "enlightened despots" from the Renaissance could be seen as an example of that, perhaps. I don't think it's impossible.

Social policies are just based on a different model. Instead of choosing "which", you choose "how much". I don't think that make it any less logical. It just makes it different.
 
Having a few days to ponder a little bit on what (little) we know about this idea... My view is actually quite positive.

First, I am all for gameplay... Realism can take a backseat (within reason). There are some facets to Civ IV civics that I can't stand. First, it's highly annoying to not know, concretely what the effect of switching civics will be on your finances. I'm a big Capital guy, and the transition from Bureaucracy to Univ Suffrage is always a pain in the ass. As is the Trade dynamic with Trade Routes vs. Specialists. Too much math and guesswork. Pain the Ass.

Second, I hate the Anarchy. Like Corruption from earlier Civs... it's a pain in the ass.

Third, I don't find the realism/trade-offs of Civ Civics terribly valuable anyway. I mean, switching in an out on a dime (i.e. initiating quite non-violent coup d'etats whenever the mood fits) doesn't seem very real anyway. Civ is always faux gov't anyway with the perpetual progress (i.e. no Civil Wars).

So where does that leave us with the new Policy Trees?

The hope is gameplay. I'm fine with the continued adding on to bonuses... and the decision-making which will accompany them.

My sincere hope is that terrain and opposing Civs will be hugely impactful and varied gameply will be natural. Should Napolean or Montezuma be my neighbor, I may need to focus on certain militaristic angles to keep up and prepare for War; Should I have a Wonder building resource, i.e. Marble or Stone (assuming they are still in), then I might want another angle. Should I make a few Research Pacts with some friendly Civs, then maybe I juice my Tech options.

So long as the 10 Policy Options play as 10 legitimate paths, then I'm a very happy guy. And I like the idea of Civs always moving forward... Realism-issues aside, or Ahriman's logic dilemmas with the counter-ideological aspects.

Most of all, it's new. And if the Gameplay factor is legitimate, it means I'll enjoy Hell out of it. Call me a Neophyte if you like, but I'm looking forward to less math and analysis of the Civic Changes. And I hate Anarchy :).
 
Well I'm still Really hoping for a Revolution.... Actually maybe Revolutions could be a Penalty for sufficient unhappiness... Sufficient unhapiness and you have a Revolution... causing one of Your social Policies to be randomly destroyed. (or perhaps you get to choose which one you lose)
 
I think we can all agree that the social policy tree does sound pretty cool. As someone mentioned in another thread this will enable smaller, more cultured, civilizations to be socially superior than their larger, less cultured, neighbours. If you're well ahead technologically it doesn't necessarily mean you will have the lead socially/civically.

I can definitely see it adding a new layer of complexity, depth and randomness into our games which will be well received. More depth the better I say.
 
Well I'm still Really hoping for a Revolution.... Actually maybe Revolutions could be a Penalty for sufficient unhappiness... Sufficient unhapiness and you have a Revolution... causing one of Your social Policies to be randomly destroyed. (or perhaps you get to choose which one you lose)


I never liked that revolutions in Civ were part of a change in political ideology. I liked when it was forced from civil unrest due to mass unhappiness but I always felt that political ideology changing shouldn't automatically put a civilization into anarchy. It created a disincentive to advance your civ.

Disincentives to play the game create un-fun situations for most (casual) gamers which is why it seems the trend in the gaming industry to do away with it. As you progress through the game you should be rewarded, not punished. Punishment should come for making bad choices, but not for making good choices.
 
I never liked that revolutions in Civ were part of a change in political ideology. I liked when it was forced from civil unrest due to mass unhappiness but I always felt that political ideology changing shouldn't automatically put a civilization into anarchy. It created a disincentive to advance your civ.

Disincentives to play the game create un-fun situations for most (casual) gamers which is why it seems the trend in the gaming industry to do away with it. As you progress through the game you should be rewarded, not punished. Punishment should come for making bad choices, but not for making good choices.

Hence the idea of Revolution being a punishment for unhappiness... and getting rid of a Social Policy in the process.
 
If you purchased (hypothetically) a Censorship policy, then you'd get all of the benefits of that, even if you simultaneously run a free speech policy from the Liberty tree.

You do understand that there's really no country that doesn't have some sort of censorship, right?
Most "western" countries have a free press, but also do have cencorship.
Denying the holocaust is illegal is a lot of countries, child pornography is banned, in plenty of countries political parties have been prosecuted and disbanded for racism, google gets demands from every country to ban websites, etc...
 
You do understand that there's really no country that doesn't have some sort of censorship, right?
Most "western" countries have a free press, but also do have cencorship.
Denying the holocaust is illegal is a lot of countries, child pornography is banned, i

Yes, but this misses the point. Censoring a few things like child porn is not enough censorship to give you the kind of benefits that you would get from running a Censorship Social Policy - less internal dissent, public easier to control, better regime stability.

Not all censorship is equal. If you have a press that is free except for child porn and hate speech, then you aren't running a Censorship social policy, you're really runnng a free press policy. A censorship policy for example would prevent publication of anything critical of the government.

A Censorship social policy, if there was such a thing, would be like communist-era Soviet bloc - probably stronger even than present-day China.

A Social Policy that you're running isn't just a few rules here or there, it would mean that its the dominant theme of society in that area.

Similarly, having a policy where convicts do hard labor while imprisoned doesn't mean you're running Slavery.

A couple of nobles doesn't make an Aristocracy. A queen with no power doesn't make Monarchy. A parliament that gets to rubber-stamp the Dictator doesn't make a Republic. A couple of rich guys don't make an Oligarchy. And outlawing child porn doesn't make Censorship.


* * *
No one says that this could be possible
We have strong indications from Shafer that you will be able to run any social policies simultaneously.

"With the policies system, we wanted to keep the feel of mixing and matching to construct one's government that was part of Civ IV, but we also wanted to instill a sense of forward momentum. Rather than having to switch out of one policy to adopt another, you build upon the policies already unlocked. The thought process we want to promote is "What cool new effect do I want?" rather than the feeling of needing to perform detailed analysis to determine if switching is a good idea."

If true, this means either:
a) Contradictory policies run at once OR
b) No contradictory policies in the tree (which excludes a very large number of interesting social policies from the tree, like slavery or emancipation, monarchy, democracy, etc. etc.).
 
I agree that some policies are contradictions, but saying Monarchy can't be combined with Democracy is just wrong... England, Belgium, Holland, all have a monarchy but can't be called undemocratic.
Imo, it's just way too soon to comment on how the policies will turn out, there's just too little info around, and the info there is often contradicts itself.
 
This is a mischaracterization of the complaint.

I totally see that there will be strategic choices over which paths to pursue. 10 paths means a lot of choices.

My complaint is primarily a logical/immersion one; I hate the idea that I could simultaneously get the benefits from running logically contradictory policies.

Policies in a logical sense are a choice; I can have this policy, or that one. Running more and more policies at once doesn't make me better off.

In a gameplay sense it will probably work fine.

But I can see that there could have been systems which would do both; have similar gameplay advantages, but still have some kind of meaningful excludability, where some combinations of policies couldn't be run simultaneously, no matter how much culture you had to afford them.


I don't think your characterization here makes sense.
A country with power shared between a leader and the people should get neither the benefits from autocracy nor democracy, not both.

The US is not an autocracy in any real sense of the world. An autocracy is like a dictatorship. The American president has very little personal power. He can't levy taxes. He can't declare wars (though this has been weakened over recent decades). He can't pass laws.
The only direct powers he has are military and in appointing civil service heads and supreme court justices (though many of these must be senate-confirmed).

If you are "just a little bit autocratic" then it makes no logical sense that you would get the full benefits of autocracy (eg having a massive public propaganda department, or censored press

Obviously we can't talk in specifics since we don't know the details yet. It could be that the specific policies inside the trees do not end up being mututally contradictory (though I think doing this means that we will be missing a lot of interesting policies - monarchy, democracy, free press, censorship, etc.)

But imagine for example that the commerce tree had a "mercantilism" policy, and then a free trade policy.
Its just not possible to run both of these at once.

Anyway, we'll have to wait for more info.

How do we know whether the social policies will feature anything of this sort? It seems a bit ridiculous to me that the game should include any other forms of government besides an absolute one where you are the ruler.

None of the games in Civilization's history ever implemented these systems properly. If they had, it's likely that you as the player would lose control of your Civilization in an election or something.
 
How do we know whether the social policies will feature anything of this sort?
Because otherwise they'll be boring.

It seems a bit ridiculous to me that the game should include any other forms of government besides an absolute one where you are the ruler.
You're not the ruler, you're more of a "guiding spirit" of your civilization. You don't represent any one person in society, you represent the collective decisions made by many different people.

Otherwise, as you say, there would be no scope for having forms of government, which have been key both to human civilization and the Civilization series, and it would be very sad to lose them.
 
Yes, but this misses the point. Censoring a few things like child porn is not enough censorship to give you the kind of benefits that you would get from running a Censorship Social Policy - less internal dissent, public easier to control, better regime stability.

So you think it would be impossible to design a Society (not just a government a Society) where you had
-less internal dissent(unhappiness)/better regime stability/decreased espionage vulneraility (benefits of Censorship)
AND
-decreased corruption, increased cultural/scientific output/decreased unhappiness (benefits of Free Press)

How about where the Press was free in some areas but Not others
Not all censorship is equal. If you have a press that is free except for child porn and hate speech, then you aren't running a Censorship social policy, you're really runnng a free press policy. A censorship policy for example would prevent publication of anything critical of the government.

What if it can only be critical of the government in certain ways at certain times... and if you only want the culture/science boost... why do they need to be critical of the government

... its not 'Truly Free' but honestly with hate speech prohibited neither is ours.
You also don't consider the idea of a Self-Censoring Press

A Censorship social policy, if there was such a thing, would be like communist-era Soviet bloc - probably stronger even than present-day China.
Why???
A 'Censorship social policy' would not be any 1 specific set of laws or traditions... it would be a set of laws and/or traditions that give a certain result

A Social Policy that you're running isn't just a few rules here or there, it would mean that its the dominant theme of society in that area.
No its NOT the dominant theme its a dominant theme
Just like the dominant themes of the justice system are convicting the guilty and freeing the innocent...both are important.
Similarly, having a policy where convicts do hard labor while imprisoned doesn't mean you're running Slavery.

What if criminal laws are so substantial that 25% of the adult population is imprisoned at any given time, and the government rents their labor out.

A queen with no power doesn't make Monarchy.
why not... even a queen with no power could justifiably have an impact on a nations cultural output

A parliament that gets to rubber-stamp the Dictator doesn't make a Republic.
What if the parliament only needs a 2/3 vote to override the dictator... 3/4? 9/10? what if 1% of parliament is selected by the dictator? 10%? 40%? 80%?

A couple of rich guys don't make an Oligarchy.
Exactly how much of the power in society do those Rich guys need to have to classify as an Oligarchy 99%? 90%? 51%?
Was the US an Oligarchy in ~1890 with the Trusts that had Senators in their back pockets?

If true, this means either:
a) Contradictory policies run at once OR
b) No contradictory policies in the tree (which excludes a very large number of interesting social policies from the tree, like slavery or emancipation, monarchy, democracy, etc. etc.).

I see another option
c) APPARENTLY contradictory Social characteristics running at once, possibly with a few mutually exclusive type decisions (such as am I 'mobilized' now or not, am I 'whipping' or not, etc.)

You're not the ruler, you're more of a "guiding spirit" of your civilization. You don't represent any one person in society, you represent the collective decisions made by many different people.

THIS is whay you get to shape Society and not just Government... so you can have a Theocratic Free Religion Society or Democratic Monarchy, etc. You affect PEOPLE, not just the LAWS on the books.
 
Almost all societies have become autocratic in more ways, even the US has autocratic elements to it, autocracy isn't just 'dictatorship', but the emergence of the centralized state.
 
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