Analysis: The Opening Game Unraveled

[Sureshot]

Taking things personally is not wise (especially taking it personal when someone is prone to taking things personal and they take things you say personally lol [now thats complicated]).

About exponential growth:
N from 0 to 5
5 times (2 to the power of N) : 5, 10, 20, 40, 80, 160
vs.
1 times (3 to the power of N) : 1, 3, 9, 27, 81, 243

surprise! exponential functions have different rates, the second one starts off slower but wins in the end, and those are simple functions

there are also counter exponential rates like
N from 1 to 5
[5 times (2 to the power of N)] - [(3 to the power of N) divided by 3]
equals
10-1, 20-3, 40-9, 80-27, 160-81
equals
9, 17, 31, 53, 79

exponential is a nice thing to throw around, but a game as complex as civ, and more so FFH2, is much more complex than simple exponential functions. and having a claimed exponential function of growth is neither true nor game winning.

 

[eerr]

Ok then we misunderstood you Unser.

However we can't jump too hastily to the conclusion that Ljosalfar is more likely to win - other civs may well beat them. Probably warmongering - especially using things like elf slaying promotion which is discovered early in the game.

I think we need many multiplayer game results to show whether the Ljosalfar are significantly more likely to win multiplayer games however (and this will take quite some time - we never finish any multi games!!!).

maybe not completely, but i've been wiped out once and on the down trend in another game

 

[Grey Fox]

I had this thought during a MP game yesterday, with Raging Barbarians. I learned the lesson that its better to take Orc Slayer then Shock, because goblins are not melee, but recon. So I was thinking, what does this do for a leader like Jonas? Everyone suddenly has an army of orc slayers, and he has?

 

[Bad Player]

Does orc slaying get goblins too? No hope for a lizzy/lizzy ranger slaying promotion?

 

[Grillick]

Orc slaying works on every Barbarian/Clan UU. They all have the Orc promotion, including the lizardmen and goblins.

 

[Bad Player]

Ah thx! I didn't know that! Very useful in raging barbs!

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

So here are my points.
All comparisons are done on the basis of the 200 AD save.

First I compared the economic output:

Arendel
84 beakers / 42 gold / 47 expenses
NOTE!! Because of low treasury you have to reduce research next turn. So the real values are:
73 beakers / 55 gold / 47 expenses

Khandros
85 beakers / 25 gold / 20 expenses

Hannah
77 beakers / 25 gold / 22 expenses

At this snapshot the elves are on par with the other civs.

Thre should be little surprise to find the /per-turn beaker output about the same. At the end of 200 turns these three realms had produced a similar number of beakers. What do you find suprising about these beaker numbers?

You also discount teh gold spent in maintenence as if that somehow had no affect in the game. The reason the elves pay more in maintence, is they have a whole lot more infrastructure to support. A poorer realm could not afford to support that infrastructure, but these Elves can.

This is also proved by your study. However if we read your notes we found out that you went "worker first" with the elves, resulting in a 48 turn delay of cottage build for the Kazad and a 33 turn delay for the lanun.

I then went to the save of the Kazad and checked every existing cottage for them. Providing they could have started at the same time as the Elves they would have 5 towns, 6 villages and 1 hamlet as compared to 0 towns, 8 Villages 3 Hamlets and 1 cottage. If both races had started at the same time then the dwarf would have a good research bonus compared to the oh so strong elves. Also keep in mind that at the same time the dwarf were able to accumulate around 1500 gold, when the elven vault is empty. Even the lanun were able to keep up with only 9 cottages and a far from optimal use of city spots and coastal useage.

"Providing they could have started at the same time as the Elves" If Both races had started from at the same time" Well, gosh, that's one of the main points. The Elves are positioned to start building Cottages before the 'average' realm can.

And actually, since Elves can build Cottages as fast as the 'average' realm can build cottages in Grass, even then the Elves would - in the vast majority of circumstances - develop faster and better. But the Elves improve faster plus they get a head-start (if the Elf player chooses to adopt this approach).

Wow, this looks like a clear winner for the elves, doesn't it. Let's take a closer look. We are talking here about a difference of 8 shields (49 Khandros to 57 Arendel). These 8 shields are won out of 2 more cities and 11 more population, so this looks quite fair to me. The elves are bigger and more numerous so they have better production but they pay for it in reduced research and higher upkeep. (see first point).
Also just theoreticly the dwarfs can outproduce the elves at this point of the game with just 2 more pop points working mines. I will not say that there is no production bonus for elves in the beginning, but it becomes irrelevant by midgame latest.
As for Hannah there is not even a slight change that they become production leaders in the beginning with their playstyle. They are completly geared for trade, not for production.

=> Result: While elves have a production bonus at start it is not benefiting them in mid-/lategame. There is no production dominance because of this in later stages of the game.

I honestly cannot reply to this, because I cannot follow the logic.

Other Facts:
You are putting the elves as military leaders compared to the other races because of their higher basestrength. This is a total wrong idea. Most of your elven units don't have experience at all, your 4 Hunters are useless at the moment. On the other hand the dwarfs for example have highly trained units of warriors often with 5* and movement bonuses. Please take this into account when judging the military might. In my opinon they have about the same strength with better potential for the dwarfs, as they already know bronze working.

The Dwarves had high exp because they happened to fight a lot of barbarians. If Aecheron has popped up next door to Ljosalfar, THEY would have the experienced army, and Khazad would have the rookies. That is why I compared hammer costs and STR values. Exp depended on the Barb, not the realm.

The point is that despite having no pressing threat, Ljo had the ability, the time, the techs, and the luxury of building more, better units than any other realm. Strange, is it not, that the Dwarves did not a build more units, despite having a NEED for more units? Why? Because they had pressing needs that ate up their hammers, despite non-stop Barbarian invasions.

Your'e kidding right, just compare the numbers of barbarian kills from the dwarfs and the elves and tell me again that their activities are comparable. You killed more then 200 barbarians as the dwarfs, as compared to maybe 50 for the elves.

I never said activity was the same in each game. I said the opposite thing entirely. I also said that - regardless of how many Barbs came at me - they achieved about the same results. In one game they delayed Workers for a few turns. So a Cottage might appear on turn 143 instead of 140. In th eother game there were not many barbs. But the ones that were were Hill Giants. When you still have Warriors and a Hill Giant is sitting where your city is supposed to go, you don't build the city right away. So both games had their share o fbarbarian interference.

Ljosalfar on Flood Plains is an easy answer, they would have done as the dwarfs did, maybe even worse, because their bonus would not be existing.

Thank you for agreeing with me. I have been trying to make the point that forests are better terrain for Cottages than even Flood Plains. Most of my critics disagree with us on tis point. So it cheers me up to hear you agree with me. Thank you.

Whom did the Ljosalfar blow away and in what aspect?
Military:
Agreed that they are strong, because they have their hero. Without him you are perfectly on par with all other races..,

But they DO have him.

"The basic premise has been supported; a realm can develop rapidly by focusing on Cottages, and Ljosalfar is tremendously better at this than anyone else."
=> I aggree with you on the point that the Ljosalfar should be better and are better to some extend, because thats their specialty, but they are by no means tremendously better.

Thank you for agreeing withthe basic premise. As for teh adjective of choice, you say potato, I say potahto.

On to the last point, your "root causes".

ROOT CAUSES

1> Starting Army: Why is this bad? It also means no early defence warrior. It offers them a small exploration bonus early on for about 10-15 turns, till a scout is build in another civ.

"Root Cause" does not mean "something that must absolutely be removed from the game.

Ljosalfar develops faster than other realms. Since they do this thing, there must be some reasons why they do so. The "Root Causes" are the aspects, some big some small, that contribute to this speed.

I will not reply to any of your so called recommendations. I will however post some of my own.

"So-called reccomendations." Thanks.

a final note to Kael and team: You did terrific work with this mod so far and with the changes of 0.15 the Ljosalfar can now hold their own in mid- and lategame and win even under pressure. Please don't break them again.

Cripes, Please do imply I some sort of villain who thinks Kael has not done a tremendous job. I am trying to contribute my skills such as they are You do not see me lecturing the art team how to cluster pixels, or telling the programmer what subroutines to use.

Thank you for taking the time to go through the data and to reply. I am sorry it took so long to reply.

 

[Bad Player]

You need to use the format [ quote]...[/ quote] or [ quote=Name]...[/ quote] I think (without the spaces).

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

My post wasn't meant to be too unpolite, apparently it was..

Well, it's absolute statement such as this that make people disagree with you (apart from the fact you're implying I'm a maths illiterate, but I will not go into real life occupations here).

Of course you can catch up with an exponential function. In particular, another exp. function can catch up if the parameter determining the slope changes after some time. And that's what would describe the situation *if* other civs could counter the elves early game advantages with mid game advantages. How can you insist on that nothing can ever catch up with an early game advantage no matter what. Assuming the elves had no higher tier units at all, would that still be the case? No. The question is, how big is that advantage compared to that of other civs.

I make no assumptions about your skills or background. But turning the subject to semantics, is it not possible for you to understand that I have recieved criticism from many sources, many of whom do not really understand the math they have been offered. I am sorry of my mood has been colored. You say you are adept in math? Great. I wish someone interested in the data had started asking me questions. I was being criticized for using lousy maps before I had posted File #1. Two or four pages of criticism, and no one had seen datum one. Is that "unbiased" analysis? Where were the people telling them to chill, to give Unser a fair hearing first? Sword cuts both ways, and I got tired of single-direction slashing.

Yes, I included these IF statements too. That really the point, isn't it? Eitehr something damppens teh hot function, or something steepens the cool one, right? That is the point, exponential growth occurs RAPIDLY. SO eitehr you dampen it down a little, early ... or you come down on it like a ton of bricks later. Guess whay there are happiness caps on city populations? Ton-of-brick dampening, that's why.

But those caps apply to EVERYONE. Ljo defeats those caps fast and move past them fast. Are you aware of any such mechanisms to dampen Ljo's growth, and only Ljo's growth? Do their tile improvements spontaneously degrade in value? (example of Dampening.) Do cities vanish when they build too many? If one realm is allowed fabulous special growth, and no feedback loops exist to bring itin line with other realms... that is a sign of trouble, I am unaware of any such feedback loops in the game, is the point.

Is there a mechanism that would steepen a growth curve for competitor realms? Why yes, I think there is at least one, the Dwarven Vault. I was hoping someone would ask me about the data, and then maybe the conversation would turn to other observations. I had visions of a discussion valuable lessons learned about more than Ljo. But that was a pipe dream, I see.

And growth is not even exponential in civ. Sure, in the beginning there is a certain drive in the sense that if you have two cities you will produce twice as many settlers. But at some point things such as maintenance kick in, or simply the fact that there is only limited space on the map. At this point the number of cities simply comes to a halt. No growth of city number whatsoever. Unless you consider war, and then a lot of different things enter the equations. So yes, someone with an early advantage will have more cities at this point, but this doesn't necessarly translate into an exponential advantage.

Not exponential?!!! Sir, you are in error. Since you are not math illiterate, you do understand how explosively fast high-order polynomials grow, yes? Allow me to construct n-space for you.

Dimention one: Cities. Yo start with one. You can gain more.

Dimention two: Tiles. Each city starts working its own tile one more, and can grow to 21 tles.

If you have two cities each with 21 tiles, that is 2x21 = 42. There you have a two-dimentional value. Growth is allowed in each dimention. Uh-oh, we are already on exponential growth curve.

Dimentions three: Tile value: Not all tiles are the same. Differnt tiles generate more value than do other tiles. This benefit can be improved through a feedback loop (Workers) to further increase tile value. This is a third dimention. Growth is alowed, so our curve is now proportional to a third-order function.

Dimentions Four: City/Realm efficiency. Each city and the realm overall gets more per resource as buildings are built and civic enacted. This is growth on a 4th dimentional axis. Our curve is now proportional to some non-linear 4th-order polynomial. We have no idea what that plynomial IS, but we know it is going to have some component with some sort of 4th order complexity.

I believe we can define a 5th dimention (Up ,up and away-ay...) but it's not like 4th order functions are known for slow growth anyway. Growth is certainly exponential, but it operates within limits. (e.g No city will work more than 21 tiles (or some bigger number for special realms). Thre is no way to solve a non-linear equasion, so how do you study it? One way to get a grasp is to test it near itsminimums and maximums. This is called Limits Testing, a term which may ring a bell depending upon your experiences and interests. Limits Testing was what I set out to do.

So you were saying something about growth not being exponential in Civ? Do you still make that claim? Or has this explanation caused you to go, "Ohhhh, now I get it?"

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

You need to use the format [ quote]...[/ quote] or [ quote=Name]...[/ quote] I think (without the spaces).

I went back and did it the brute-force way Thanks

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

What the heck. Are you saying I am lying?


I'm going to repeat myself: I don't think those test runs hurt, and I'm curious on the outcomes, especially if others do their own tests. *All I was saying* is that in this dispute it would help if people don't claim to be right no matter what. And this applies to me as much as to you.

If you cannot agree with that, then I can't help it.

edit: and if what I'm saying is considered flaming and lying, I'll drop out of the discussion, even if I think it's not true. But honestly, this is just a game, and people are supposed to have fun. So I am not going to further stir up this situation just to prove I'm right.

How could you possibly be lying when all you have done is offer up your opinion?

No, I objected to your use of perjorative phrases such as "why do you feel the need to persue this topic" and somethig else that smacked of armchair pshychanalysis. Have you ever worked hard on something hoping to do a favor for someone, get accusations of intentioanlly lying and such for your trouble. I worked hard on this, in good faith,, and tried answering questions. That sucked up even more of my time, typing as fast as I could, answering on the fly. Give it a try yourself someday. So the little "why are you compelled" crack did not sit very well. Now I'm a crackpot on top of it. It was somethig less than a charming remark.

I have never said every one of my claims are right. I never said even one of my reccomendations must be enacted. I do say it is my FIRM OPIONION THAT LJOSALFAR IS BROKE BUT THAT IS MY OPINION.

What I do object to, is when people (again the genral experience bleeds into tis reply) who obviously do not understand the math post ascerbic criticisms that have all the mathematical validity of 2 > 8. You ask me to accept some possiblity I am wrong on THOSE issues. Sorry, this is math, not politics. Some of the criticism has been flat-out wrong. What am I supposed to do? Pretend?

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

exponential is a nice thing to throw around, but a game as complex as civ, and more so FFH2, is much more complex than simple exponential functions. and having a claimed exponential function of growth is neither true nor game winning.

Yes, some cure climb faster than others. That's the point. When you look at fixed increments of time, say, oh, every 10 turns, the faster growing curve will be ahead of the slower growing curve.

And unless something later comes along to change these slopes, that is, unless the functions change, the slower growing curve will never, ever, ever, catch the fast curve. With every passing increment of, oh, say, 10 turns, this lead will be bigger than it was 10 years ago, and will be bigger again 10 years in teh furture.

This is exactly the sort of growth observed in my study. Exactly.

I am honestly amazed I am having to defend the fundemental notion that Civ is a game of exponential growth. The game has been on the market for years, there are any number of gaming articles written about this sort of thing. I thought this stuff was axiomaticfor Civ veterans.

Oh well. I'm done. The replies have all been answered. Now I can put this steaming heap of wasted time into the past.

 

[dreiche2]

(I have to look after that article about mis-communication over the internet... Imagine the following being said slowly in a *calm* voice)

Then I take back my question "why do you feel the need to persue this topic". Even if I don't see how that automatially implies you're a "crackpot", and it (the question) wasn't even the point of my post.

I didn't mean to get personal, and I tried not to. Honestly. I did not say you were a 'crackpot', nor did I want to imply this. I understand you put much work in your study, so I understand where your anger is coming from, but this cannot mean I'm not allowed to rise objections.

You on the other hand implied I was lying, flaming, and questioning your sanitiy. And at the same time implied I was too stupid to understand 2<8. And you did it repeatedly.

On the maths issue:

Did you just tell me that the growth is polynomial? Because, polynomial is NOT the same as exponential. It doesn't make much of a difference for the civ issue if you have a high order polynomial or an exponential function. I however makes a difference when you are at the same time saying I would not get the maths.

I also don't understand what you want with limit testing, or what non-linear equations you're talking about (which, btw., can be solved for higher orders. Should I give you an example?).

Finally, to not go too much into all the details again, just two more things. You said

But those caps apply to EVERYONE.

Sure, but if that makes growth no longer "exponential" (whatever we mean with that term), then it's not so hard to catch up.

Is there a mechanism that would steepen a growth curve for competitor realms? Why yes, I think there is at least one, the Dwarven Vault.

That was exactly my point from the beginning. That there might be advantages of other civs that balance that out. Like the dwarven vault. Or maybe Luchuirp (sp?) mud golems (as you suggested in another thread yourself). Or the Grigori adventures. Or, etc.


Now, again I don't see how I'm overly unpolite here. And I feel personaly attacked by you. I don't mind a discussion, but I don't mind it being stopped here, neither, if cannot get on in a polite way.

I'm still curious about test run results. Others, and yours.

 

[Bad Player]

The only answer I see is for Kael to run another werewolf game to make ppl get along!

 

[dreiche2]

I never really understood why he took a game where people lynch each other for that

 

[Grillick]

I think the information Unser has provided is incredibly valuable, and I think a lot can be learned from it. Technically, the only thing he's proven is that, when commercial output is the primary focus of a civilization, Exploration is the first technology researched, and Education is the second goal, then the Ljosalfar perform better than the other four test realms.

This information is valuable, but I don't think it necessarily implies that Ljosalfar are broken. The point being missed is the fact that, for one, not every realm's focus should be commercial output all the time. For another, not every realm is best off researching exploration as their first technology. If, instead of researching education, the Khazad had beelined straight for Runes and Arete, their +1 commerce and +1 hammer per mine MAY have significantly boosted their performance compared to Ljosalfar. What's more, they would've been a mere one technology away from Bronze working and, had they had copper nearby, their army could've been much more powerful.

And again, perhaps that wouldn't have been the case. It's difficult to know just what strategies work best for what realms, but what I think is important to realize is that Unser's tests, while very worthwhile and useful, do not prove that Ljosalfar outperform all other realms in all aspects, in all cases. I don't necessarily think he's saying that, but I think many other people do think he is. What he's proven is that the strategy he outlined is best for the Ljosalfar out of the tested civilizations.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

I think the information Unser has provided is incredibly valuable, and I think a lot can be learned from it. Technically, the only thing he's proven is that, when commercial output is the primary focus of a civilization, Exploration is the first technology researched, and Education is the second goal, then the Ljosalfar perform better than the other four test realms.

This information is valuable, but I don't think it necessarily implies that Ljosalfar are broken. The point being missed is the fact that, for one, not every realm's focus should be commercial output all the time. For another, not every realm is best off researching exploration as their first technology. If, instead of researching education, the Khazad had beelined straight for Runes and Arete, their +1 commerce and +1 hammer per mine MAY have significantly boosted their performance compared to Ljosalfar. What's more, they would've been a mere one technology away from Bronze working and, had they had copper nearby, their army could've been much more powerful.

And again, perhaps that wouldn't have been the case. It's difficult to know just what strategies work best for what realms, but what I think is important to realize is that Unser's tests, while very worthwhile and useful, do not prove that Ljosalfar outperform all other realms in all aspects, in all cases. I don't necessarily think he's saying that, but I think many other people do think he is. What he's proven is that the strategy he outlined is best for the Ljosalfar out of the tested civilizations.

Thhak you for the opportunity to clarify my position once more. You are right. I love your first paragraph. That's a great conclusion. That would of course set up the second study: Save turn #001 on a variety of maps and play the same realm with different development strategies on the same map. If my AC -> Edu -> Cottages strategy cannot be matched by another opening tack, then the noose draws ever tighter. But when the entire effort is consigned to the garbage heap even before the results are posted, the conversation never reaches this sort of productive stage.

My study does not prove anything about Ljosalfar's overall perfomrance being broken. That includes aspects outside the scope of the study. Those aspects are unmeasureable. So I set out to meansure what could be measured. If I did it again would there be less uncertainty in the measurements? I'm certain of it!

I never said I proved Ljoalfar are broken. I said their economy was a complletely different beast than anyone else's studied. Furthermore, I outlined the exact mechanisms by which the Ljosalfar economy accelerates. No one has even tried to dispute the math underlying those descriptions. Since we have measurements way out of whack with everyone else, and since we have explanations for those measurements, the safe (alternate 2nd consonant: n) conclusion is: Ljosalfar have a much more powerful early economy that their studied rivals.

Given this huge early economy, I said it is my opinion Ljosalfar are broken. A lot of gut instinct goes into an opinion. The short version goes like this: It matters not so much what end-game factors affect Ljosalfar, because they can probably achieve a Domination victory before any of them come into play. And they can do this probably for every game started. It's just the old Mongol strategy from Civ 1 fancied up in pointy shoes and forest-green jumpers, and that's a shame, since it most certainly be fixed. That's the root of my opinion, it's my opinion, it's small at both ends and big in the middle, and if you don't like it, Gentle Lurker, please learn to live with it because it is mine.

On the math side, though, there are certain absolutes. Exponential growth is not a matter of opinion. Either the rate of change is accelreating over time or it is not. Every civ player knows this happens, even if they are not used to hearing the mathematical terms. I wasted a lot of time debating this thing.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

(I have to look after that article about mis-communication over the internet... Imagine the following being said slowly in a *calm* voice)

Then I take back my question "why do you feel the need to persue this topic". Even if I don't see how that automatially implies you're a "crackpot", and it (the question) wasn't even the point of my post.

I didn't mean to get personal, and I tried not to. Honestly. I did not say you were a 'crackpot', nor did I want to imply this. I understand you put much work in your study, so I understand where your anger is coming from, but this cannot mean I'm not allowed to rise objections.

Thank you. I saw no reason to question my motives. "Point" of the post or mere gratuitous insult, it served no productive purpose.

Object away. Raising well-founded objections is great. Implying that no one agrees with me, so I should just accept mob rule, is not so great. I understand there has been anothr recent excercize in mob rule, lately. I understand mob rule has been proven something less than 100% efficient.

You on the other hand implied I was lying, flaming, and questioning your sanitiy. And at the same time implied I was too stupid to understand 2<8. And you did it repeatedly.

Well, I thought you had advised me that some people might be more receptive to my points if I didn't insist I was always right. To which I thought I replied that on certain mathematical points I was right, that the certainty of tis was absolute, just as 8 is absolutely greater than two. What am I supposed to do - went the gist of this reply - when readers who clearly do not understand the math insist that 2 > 8? You urged a course of action upon me; I thought I was explaining why that course of action was unsatisfying. This came across as a personal attack on your math skills.

On the maths issue:

Did you just tell me that the growth is polynomial? Because, polynomial is NOT the same as exponential. It doesn't make much of a difference for the civ issue if you have a high order polynomial or an exponential function. I however makes a difference when you are at the same time saying I would not get the maths.

No, I am not saying the growth is a polynomial. I said it is an unknowable non-linear equasion. If is an unknown equation, how can I know it is a polynomial? I went to he trouble in my reply to you to define the 4 dimentions (at least) in which a civ realm expands. Does this sound like the sort of explanation I would waste on a person I consider to be math-illererate? Honestly? Consider the evidence before you, is my request.

I also don't understand what you want with limit testing, or what non-linear equations you're talking about (which, btw., can be solved for higher orders. Should I give you an example?).

If you do not understand the methodology of Limits Testing, I am at a loss as to why I am being criticized for using the method. Again, I spoke using a term I thought you would find familiar, and thus spark the lightbulb of "Now I see what Unser is trying to say." But since you are not familiar with the term - and that is not even remotely close to a character flaw; many consider it a plus - here is the shorthand explanation.

Limits Testing sets out to establish the minimum and maximum performance limits of a given system. It can be informative when the performance within the limits is too complex to be studied directly. You might not be able to predict what happens under given conditions ... but you know it won't exceed its absolute maximum.

For Civ, the economic minimum is obvious: Zero. Raging Barbs rage your civ into the dustbin. For the maximum, let a civ run unimpeded and let it dvelop as hard as it can. Then the designers have at least a ballpark idea of what a civ's potential really is. In actuall game play performance will be less-than-maximum ... but that imperfection applies to all civs in that game. It is still valuable for the designers to understand how each civ performs near its optimum maximum. Thus we have Limits Testing.

Aside: There are an infinite number of non-lineear equations. A finite number of them are solvable. Finite number divided by infinity = not bloody likely the "Civ Equation" could be solved, even if it could be written down. Care to wager? I'll give 2:1 odds.

Finally, to not go too much into all the details again, just two more things. You said

Sure, but if that makes growth no longer "exponential" (whatever we mean with that term), then it's not so hard to catch up.

If Ljosalfar outperforms the other realms under the mechanics that apply to all realms in general, how will they catch up? Even if growth totally stops until the game ends (something that I have never seen occur) how can a civ catch up if it takes longer to reach the same cap in growth?

That was exactly my point from the beginning. That there might be advantages of other civs that balance that out. Like the dwarven vault. Or maybe Luchuirp (sp?) mud golems (as you suggested in another thread yourself). Or the Grigori adventures. Or, etc.

Who said there were no issues with other realms? What has driven me nuts is the illogical presumption on the part of some of my critics (and notice how tis is not addressed to you) that, for some reason, if one criticism exists for another civ, that means that it is somehow no longer possible to consider making any changes to Ljosalfar at all.

Now let's consider this phrase. "there might be advantages of other civs that balance..." Sure, there might be. But a lot of people (again, not addressed to you) use this phrase in a context that has me strongly suspect they really mean "there might be advantages...and when I say "might be" I mean "definitely are". I don't agree with those peple. But I do agree with you. There "might be" factors outside the scope of my study that narrow the gap between Ljosalfar and 'the others'. But once again I am cut with but a single edge of the sword. The otehr edge of that sword cuts in my favor. There might be factors that make Ljosalfar even stronger than I measured them! It's a 50% / 50% thing, but more than zero of my respondants see only one side of that slash.

Does this apply to you? Decide for yourself. That is outside the scope of my comment.

Now, again I don't see how I'm overly unpolite here. And I feel personaly attacked by you. I don't mind a discussion, but I don't mind it being stopped here, neither, if cannot get on in a polite way.

I'm sorry you felt personally attacked by me, just as I felt sorry to feel personally attacked by you.

I'm still curious about test run results. Others, and yours.

Myself, I cannot possibly imagine going through this crap again. I welcome the results from other testers. May they prove me wrong.

 

[Halancar]

I think the information Unser has provided is incredibly valuable, and I think a lot can be learned from it. Technically, the only thing he's proven is that, when commercial output is the primary focus of a civilization, Exploration is the first technology researched, and Education is the second goal, then the Ljosalfar perform better than the other four test realms.

This information is valuable, but I don't think it necessarily implies that Ljosalfar are broken. The point being missed is the fact that, for one, not every realm's focus should be commercial output all the time. For another, not every realm is best off researching exploration as their first technology. If, instead of researching education, the Khazad had beelined straight for Runes and Arete, their +1 commerce and +1 hammer per mine MAY have significantly boosted their performance compared to Ljosalfar. What's more, they would've been a mere one technology away from Bronze working and, had they had copper nearby, their army could've been much more powerful.

And again, perhaps that wouldn't have been the case. It's difficult to know just what strategies work best for what realms, but what I think is important to realize is that Unser's tests, while very worthwhile and useful, do not prove that Ljosalfar outperform all other realms in all aspects, in all cases. I don't necessarily think he's saying that, but I think many other people do think he is. What he's proven is that the strategy he outlined is best for the Ljosalfar out of the tested civilizations.

I must agree, the strategy tested is clearly designed for the elves. Other civilizations should rush for other things :

Luchuirp : rush for construction. They are two techs away from Str 5 golems that don't need special resources, and Barnaxus. On the way, they might try to build the Pyramid (particularly if they have stone) and get access to powerful civics. Once they are there, time to claim a nice empire from their neighbours. They can worry about commerce afterwards.

Khazad : rush for runes. Ancient Chants, Mysticism (God King civic, elder councils), Mining (earlier if you have gold or gems nearby), Runes. Then, if you have room for expansion, you might head for festivals (market + temple of Kilmorph for 6 gold per settlement) and create a larger empire than what other civs could afford. Your commerce will take a hit, your science go down, but as you then develop you'll recover with a large empire. Or you could go for Arete, or Bronze Working, depending on your situation.

Lanun : A sea tile will replace a prairie+cottage tile. So go for fishing, then Overlord. A sea tile is not quite as good as a cottage in the long term, but no need to rush for education.

Hippus : rush for raiders, start harassing a neighbour

Other civilization may not quite have clear rushing goals (although anyone can rush for a religion), but if they have stone nearby they can try to build a few early wonders, by going the production road, then heading for (depending on situation) the Pyramids, the Prophecy of Ragnarok, Sucellius Tumb, Nilhelm Pact, the Catacomb Library, or The Great Library.

Still, that does not invalidate the results of the test : the elves, left alone, are unmatched for early economic development, and they get decent defensive units, and a hero, while doing it. And it is my opinion that they are too good at it, and need to be slowed down a little, as they have been.

I also think that giving them an extra 1 and 1 on most tiles (been able to work Ancient Forests) is a little too good in the endgame, particularly since that also takes away health, and probably happiness, problems at the same time, and 1 of something should be removed from elven cottages. By not giving them the Arcane Lore bonus, perhaps, or limiting cottage growth.

 

[dreiche2]

Limits testing is a pretty general term, that's what I meant.


Now I'm going to quote myself.

Honestly, I really don't understand why this whole point is so important to you. Even from those that think the elves are overpowered (or, unbalanced in favour of them...), you seem to be the only one that acts as if the whole game is totally broken because of them. With such a wide dissension in the community about this issue, I can only conclude that this unbalance cannot be so bad.

I don't get it how one can read an insult into this. I even said, it wasn't meant as one, and I finally even took back that question (whatever that means). But you keep implying I insulted you.

At the same time you still do not take back accusations of lying and flaming. You keep ignoring points I make, and keep imputing things I haven't said or haven't meant to. I tried several times to take out the hot air of the discussion, while you keep on talking to me in a way I regard as pretty dismissive.

So I think it's better to finally stop participating in this discussion, it's the second time I feel bad for spreading a bad mood, and surely it's not what this great mod deserves. So no further posts from me on this issue.

There's more important things: Finding the were wolves, for example. Ha! Hope I survive the night..

edit: ok I see you're still working on your reply to me, it starts to sound better. Anyway, the main points remain, so it's better to drop out of the discussion... even if I'm tempted by that equa... I'm gone!