Analysis: The Opening Game Unraveled

[Unser Giftzwerg]

sure, but the problem is, how to find out how major that advantage has to be so that it cannot be countered by mid-game or warmonger strengths of civs...

btw, I suggest to somehow incorporate the epic war of the giftzwerge vs. the elves into the history of FfH , or maybe a giftzwerg unit or something....

hm I just found a candidate for a dwarven assassin unit it seems.... with a bonus against elves...

btw., wouldn't it much more appropiate to call "unser" "giftzwerg" instead? After all, it's just "our poissondwarf" in german, so being called "our" should be somewhat confusing...

Ah, my moniker starts to be unraveled itself.

I wish this study did not have to overcome such strong emotional resistance from the Ljosalfar players. There were other lessons learned too. But a full month of trying to prove the color white is white has wasted a lot of time. Tehre are issues with the Khazad too. I think their economy runs to hot. Ot put another way, I think the DV gives too large a boost for the resources it "costs". But Ljo Ljo Ljo ... I didn't know this mod was called The Ljosalfar and Other Civs for Them to Kill.

Anyway, the lack of Dwarven units is another irritant. Why are the Khazad forbidden from emplying assassins? Near as I can tell, the only thing that makes them assassins is they supposedly use poison. Since when are Dwarves unable to drip some goo an a blade?

Or since I am sure that suggestion will give someone the vapors, why isn't the other side of the coin reflected. If dwarves can't use poison, they are at least traditional resistant to it. So why don't Dwarven melee units have a +50% bonus against Assassins? That would simulate the assassin poison not giveing n advantage against Dwarves.

I know some of the dwarven stuff is out for art. But still, they do not seem to have received the same loving attention as the various elves have.

But I'm Unser Giftzwerg.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

I'm pretty familiar with creating a WBS file from scratch, and will gladly help Unser with the creating a new test map if it's needed, as well as changing the civs, etc for testing purposes. If the help is wanted, hit me up with a PM, and we'll hash out what is desired of the map.

Thanks lots, TCSM! I will defiitely PM you in the coming few days.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

To Sureshot: I'd be interested to see both your results and your scenario, perhaps even play it. I do think you raise a valid point in that single-player balance != multi-player balance.

On reflection, you should probably make your scenario available here: the more people who play it, the more fluctuations in the data should even out.

I wonder if it would be possible to set up a test game similar to the Warlords barbarian scenario for the purpose of evaluating the AI?

I know for a fact I never made any claims that multiplayer was the kettle of fish as single-player.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Not to be a nitpicker but ...

"Unser Giftzwerg" means "our poisonous dwarf" not "our poisoned dwarf" that would be "unser vergifteter Zwerg".

Greets Ghostmaker

Unraveled some more...

 

[AndrewDJ]

I know for a fact I never made any claims that multiplayer was the kettle of fish as single-player.

Never meant to imply that you had made such claims.

(So, what does "unser Giftzwerg" mean, idiomatically?)

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

while you're at it: "Giftzwerg" is more of a figure of speech, so both of your translations are kinda wrong.

mfg
Mavy

'figure of speech' unravels good!

 

[dreiche2]

Ah, my moniker starts to be unraveled itself.

I wish this study did not have to overcome such strong emotional resistance from the Ljosalfar players. There were other lessons learned too. But a full month of trying to prove the color white is white has wasted a lot of time. Tehre are issues with the Khazad too. I think their economy runs to hot. Ot put another way, I think the DV gives too large a boost for the resources it "costs". But Ljo Ljo Ljo ... I didn't know this mod was called The Ljosalfar and Other Civs for Them to Kill.

The funny thing is, I am not even a Ljosalfar lover, I'm just a notorious sceptic, so when someone says he can prove something and it seems to me there are flaws in the argument it's really hard for me to hold myself back...

And some things irritate me. Such as this

I said I was out to measure the economy. I think you will grow quite old looking for a quote from me saying only the economy need be considered.

well, you were not saying it, but you're constantly doing it. You look at the economics, and conclude that elves need to be nerved. And as soon someone points this out to you, you rely upon that you did not say it explicitely (as in, 'you didn't use the words'. Same with 'overpowered').

Also, there are still so many more or less strong objections coming from many sides, but still you claim that there cannot be any "unbiased" doubt about you being right.

Honestly, I really don't understand why this whole point is so important to you. Even from those that think the elves are overpowered (or, unbalanced in favour of them...), you seem to be the only one that acts as if the whole game is totally broken because of them. With such a wide dissension in the community about this issue, I can only conclude that this unbalance cannot be so bad.

Now, I'm interested in the outcomes of the other test runs, and dont think some step per step changes such as lowering the workers speed can cause much havoc. However, in the end I think if Kael & co need the feedback then they should simply put up a poll about if the elves are overpowered, and I have already suggestions in my head for possible items on that poll.

Also, I think it would help reducing angry emotions in this disscussion if you, Giftzwerg, would move away a little bit from the statement that you are without doubt right...

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Never meant to imply that you had made such claims.

(So, what does "unser Giftzwerg" mean, idiomatically?)

No, you didn't but you commented on that in a nice, tight, easy to QUOTE paragrpah. The message you replied to was pretty long. It's much easier to extract a short post.

Literally it means our poisondwarf, but it is used as slang for, as I understand it, our tough little bastard. ( As in, he may be a tough little bastard, but he's our tough little bastard.) I encountered it while reading Cornelius Ryan's ( http://history.acusd.edu/gen/WW2Timeline/corneliusryan.html )The Final Battle, about the fall of Berlin. This is the same author who gave us The Longest Day and A Bridge Too Far.

This guy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotthard_Heinrici

was the last German General to command Berlin's defenses. He developed many of the German defensive techniques used in the long retreat out of the USSR, thus earling the sobriquet "Unser Giftzwerg" from his men. It is, as the book says, one of those terms which can be used as a term of distain or endearment.

I hesitate to go into detail because this leaves me open to assumptions that I am one of those WWII German-loving nuts who thing Germany could have won or Hitler was a great military leader or ... worse. No, I just came across the term and thought, 'there's a great name for a fantasy character!'

Or, for use in an internet forum, where it is bound to give some German-speaking lurker a chuckle.

 

[Kael]

btw, I suggest to somehow incorporate the epic war of the giftzwerge vs. the elves into the history of FfH , or maybe a giftzwerg unit or something....

Nikis-Knight wrote all of the defeated text for all of the leaders. Thats the new text in 0.15d that is shown when you defeat a leader. He wrote 2 for the Ljosalfar, one serious (which was used) and one as a joke. The joke one was "See... and you thought we were overpowered."

 

[dreiche2]

Nikis-Knight wrote all of the defeated text for all of the leaders. Thats the new text in 0.15d that is shown when you defeat a leader. He wrote 2 for the Ljosalfar, one serious (which was used) and one as a joke. The joke one was "See... and you thought we were overpowered."

Hehe, I wouldn't mind that being included.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

The funny thing is, I am not even a Ljosalfar lover, I'm just a notorious sceptic, so when someone says he can prove something and it seems to me there are flaws in the argument it's really hard for me to hold myself back...

And some things irritate me. Such as this



well, you were not saying it, but you're constantly doing it. You look at the economics, and conclude that elves need to be nerved. And as soon someone points this out to you, you rely upon that you did not say it explicitely (as in, 'you didn't use the words'. Same with 'overpowered').

Also, there are still so many more or less strong objections coming from many sides, but still you claim that there cannot be any "unbiased" doubt about you being right.

Honestly, I really don't understand why this whole point is so important to you. Even from those that think the elves are overpowered (or, unbalanced in favour of them...), you seem to be the only one that acts as if the whole game is totally broken because of them. With such a wide dissension in the community about this issue, I can only conclude that this unbalance cannot be so bad.

Now, I'm interested in the outcomes of the other test runs, and dont think some step per step changes such as lowering the workers speed can cause much havoc. However, in the end I think if Kael & co need the feedback then they should simply put up a poll about if the elves are overpowered, and I have already suggestions in my head for possible items on that poll.

Also, I think it would help reducing angry emotions in this disscussion if you, Giftzwerg, would move away a little bit from the statement that you are without doubt right...

I know you are not an explicit Ljo-defender.

And yes, I explicitly said Ljo is broken. Yes, I think there are design flaws.

I hate the word 'nerfed'. I played MMORPG and that word is used to mean anything. I don't want the damn Ljo nerfed, I want all civs to be given the same degree of attention. Ljo was certainly gived certain game mechanics for role-play reasons that do not hold up under comparative testing.

No, there can be no unbiased doubt about me being right on a couple certain points. The main point being, sucking hind tit on an 5th power exponential growth curve means you. Will. Never. Ever. Catch. Up. Periond. Mathematical Certainty. You find it irritating that I insist 8 >> 2? Past some point there is little I can do about that. 8 is >> 2.

So unless there is something about Ljo - and only Ljo - in the endgame to offset the raging economy, they will "win" every time. See! See! You want them nerfed! No, I would hope thay are designed well.

THIS APPLIES TO EVERY REALM THAT HAS SOME ODD SPECIAL QUIRK, NOT JUST LJO. KHAZAD NEEDS THOUGHT. I AM PLAYING LUCHUIRP NOW AND I ALREADY SEE THEY NEED THOUGHT. MORE IS AT STAKE THAN JUST LJO PLAYER OPINION.

What I am saying is, can we move past the thought that the Ljo are so sacred nothing can possibly ever be done under any circumstances to adjust their gameplay? Can we move past Ljo, and look at the bigger picture?

Why did I do this? Ironic, as it was a reply to one of your messages that started me doing this. You made some sort of comment that all this was opinion ( I forget the exact words) so I said I would deliver up the real goods. I put the obligation on myself, and I held myself to that obligation. If you see in there a character flaw, once again past a certain point all I can do is shrug.

I am rsponding to 25 different critics. They are all arguing against one proponent. One critic will speak up with claims there is absolutely no difference in the Ljo economy from anyone else's. This much I have flat-out demonstrated, but peplle still deny it. So I attempt to reply to that. Then someone else chimes in and say, well, but all that will just be bal;anced out in th eendgame. To which I try explaining that this fails to appreceate the magnitufde of the difference. I am responding to a moving target. Of course my comments are going to wander.

Y'know, at some point, I would thing I would get a little benefit of the doubt, just once. Oh, I just didn't play them well, comments like that come and go and people nod and say yup, must be. Even comments such as intentional lies and the little physcho-analysis you just gave me ... I had by share of flames thrown my way and I'm the guy who coughed up 100 hours of his life tryng to offer something more informative than opinion.

But it really does not matter much to me. If FfH turns out to be a fun game, I will play it. If what I consider to be fatal flaws make it to release, I will not play it. But it will still be entirely adequate for another application I have in mind, regardless of the imbalances. So I come out with something useful in the end.

In the meantime, out of respect for the team's remarkable efforts on this mod, I will try to help them out with the workload as my abilities allow, so long as my participation is welcome. If this is seen as a character flaw, so be it.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Nikis-Knight wrote all of the defeated text for all of the leaders. Thats the new text in 0.15d that is shown when you defeat a leader. He wrote 2 for the Ljosalfar, one serious (which was used) and one as a joke. The joke one was "See... and you thought we were overpowered."

Great inside joke.

Or, "If we lost then I must be an idiot!"

 

[Bad Player]

Ok then we misunderstood you Unser.

However we can't jump too hastily to the conclusion that Ljosalfar is more likely to win - other civs may well beat them. Probably warmongering - especially using things like elf slaying promotion which is discovered early in the game.

I think we need many multiplayer game results to show whether the Ljosalfar are significantly more likely to win multiplayer games however (and this will take quite some time - we never finish any multi games!!!).

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Ghostmaker

Ghost, I am going to have to ask your forgiveness. I don't want immerse myself in yet another long post on this topic, not just right now. I am burned out. But all the effort you put in deserves response, so I will. Please give me a bit of time though. Thanks.

 

[Sureshot]

However, in the end I think if Kael & co need the feedback then they should simply put up a poll about if the elves are overpowered, and I have already suggestions in my head for possible items on that poll.

ya, thats a good idea, the people should voice their concerns and then the matter should be let lie... oh wait:
Poll on whether Elves and Ancient Forests should be changed
They were in fact voted as overwhelmingly to stay the same, with the second choice that they should stay the same and Ancient forests get increased benefits.

 

[Sureshot]

I am very interested how this turns out, sureshot.

But doesn't your map setting contradict the idea to test how the civs compare.
In my opinion by doing tailored continents of what you assume as optimal land (it might be or might not be) you bring in your own prejudices which makes the test as valid as Giftzwergs.

To really get compareable results you should provide each civ with exactly the same land. This is even more true when you speak of multiplayer games where you cannot restart until you get "optimal" conditions.

Oh, I think any such tests are by definition biased, I've said so myself in my own proposal.

I've completed my scenario, and am going through the test runs.

My scenario is atleast easily controlled and tailored to each. The simple fact of the matter is, a fish out of water flounders and a squirrel on the highway is squished, so they can't rely on the same map settings. But with equal optimality tailored to each civ, I believe that the Ljosalfar does not have a better economy.

My test will atleast avoid some of the obvious errors on Unsers, though even my results are a waste, popular vote says they are fine the way they are, and fun to play (I know I rather enjoyed it when I realized they could build improvements on forests and then improve the forests as well, it felt so elfy; and I've found the game more easily won with other civs).

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Ok then we misunderstood you Unser.

However we can't jump too hastily to the conclusion that Ljosalfar is more likely to win - other civs may well beat them. Probably warmongering - especially using things like elf slaying promotion which is discovered early in the game.

I think we need many multiplayer game results to show whether the Ljosalfar are significantly more likely to win multiplayer games however (and this will take quite some time - we never finish any multi games!!!).

Thank you Bad Player. This post is appreceated.

God, I would LOVE it if there was a multiplayer game live this that could be played in less than a typical elven lifetime. I'd even consider parking my butt at least once to try it out, even if it does.

Multiplayer balance is much harder to achieve. For play against the AI, hell, the player is "supposed' to win. Single-player games allow for more lopsided positions. The concern there is (IMO) if the positions are too lopsided, one tires of the game more rapidly than otherwise. People start having questions or saying mean things.

"Why can I win all the time with the Crabmen or the Bushwhackers, but no one else unless I turn down the difficulty?"

"Why do I end up fighting The Swarm or McGuilicuddy's Headbashers at the end of just about every game?"

"Just do A-B-C at start of every game, and you'll always get the Sword of Gargle. Always."

"Don't bother playing Legion of Uurbaa ... they reek."

FfH has to be seen as sinplge-player game primarilly don't you think? So that allows for more leeway. Some positions can be a bit easier to play than others, that's fine. But differences have to be kept within reason. We do not want people saying things like the above about FfH, yes?

 

[Bad Player]

I prefer playing multiplayer but there's not enough ppl up for it and also timezones are a problem. We keep saying we will continue the game the next weekend but it doesn't happen (Deathling's internet must take some responsibility too!!!).

 

[Sureshot]

lol, ya its usually hard to continue a game later, because players change and by the time you have the same players again its a different version lol

but ive played tons of games so far, and starting over is kinda the best part anyways.

 

[dreiche2]

My post wasn't meant to be too unpolite, apparently it was...

No, there can be no unbiased doubt about me being right on a couple certain points. The main point being, sucking hind tit on an 5th power exponential growth curve means you. Will. Never. Ever. Catch. Up. Periond. Mathematical Certainty. You find it irritating that I insist 8 >> 2? Past some point there is little I can do about that. 8 is >> 2.

Well, it's absolute statement such as this that make people disagree with you (apart from the fact you're implying I'm a maths illiterate, but I will not go into real life occupations here).

Of course you can catch up with an exponential function. In particular, another exp. function can catch up if the parameter determining the slope changes after some time. And that's what would describe the situation *if* other civs could counter the elves early game advantages with mid game advantages. How can you insist on that nothing can ever catch up with an early game advantage no matter what. Assuming the elves had no higher tier units at all, would that still be the case? No. The question is, how big is that advantage compared to that of other civs.

And growth is not even exponential in civ. Sure, in the beginning there is a certain drive in the sense that if you have two cities you will produce twice as many settlers. But at some point things such as maintenance kick in, or simply the fact that there is only limited space on the map. At this point the number of cities simply comes to a halt. No growth of city number whatsoever. Unless you consider war, and then a lot of different things enter the equations. So yes, someone with an early advantage will have more cities at this point, but this doesn't necessarly translate into an exponential advantage.

City population growth itself is not exponential, either.

So unless there is something about Ljo - and only Ljo - in the endgame to offset the raging economy, they will "win" every time. See! See! You want them nerfed! No, I would hope thay are designed well.

Well, what people seem to implying is that it *could* (!) be that elves have an early game and a builder advantage (and yes, some people even disagree here). And this *could* be balanced out as soon as wars come into play or mid-game advantages of other civs. Such as the vault of the Khazad. Which seems to be next thing you think is over... unbalanced. Anyway, I said *could* because I don't think that is clear. But it *is* a possibility.

THIS APPLIES TO EVERY REALM THAT HAS SOME ODD SPECIAL QUIRK, NOT JUST LJO. KHAZAD NEEDS THOUGHT. I AM PLAYING LUCHUIRP NOW AND I ALREADY SEE THEY NEED THOUGHT. MORE IS AT STAKE THAN JUST LJO PLAYER OPINION.

And what if this is exactly the point? That every civ has some special quirk?

Y'know, at some point, I would thing I would get a little benefit of the doubt, just once.

, and dont think some step per step changes such as lowering the workers speed can cause much havoc.

see above

I had by share of flames thrown my way and I'm the guy who coughed up 100 hours of his life tryng to offer something more informative than opinion.

I don't think I am flaming you, at least not more than you do it yourself.

Even comments such as intentional lies and the little physcho-analysis you just gave me ...

What the heck. Are you saying I am lying?


I'm going to repeat myself: I don't think those test runs hurt, and I'm curious on the outcomes, especially if others do their own tests. *All I was saying* is that in this dispute it would help if people don't claim to be right no matter what. And this applies to me as much as to you.

If you cannot agree with that, then I can't help it.

edit: and if what I'm saying is considered flaming and lying, I'll drop out of the discussion, even if I think it's not true. But honestly, this is just a game, and people are supposed to have fun. So I am not going to further stir up this situation just to prove I'm right.