Ancient Discoveries.....0_o

[LightSpectra]

But they have little in common besides a single negative trait.

So? Should I not use the word "chair" anymore as "device for sitting down," because there's such a huge variety of chairs that they don't have anything in common beside what the definition prescribes?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Well, no, because you are not defining "chair" as "a piece of furniture you don't stand up on". What "chairs" have in common is what they are, not what they aren't.

it's like the term "invertebrate" - it isn't useful, because it defines a large variety of animals (some of which have more in common with vertebrates than with other invertebrates) by a physical feature they lack.

 

[Plotinus]

It's a useful word insofar that it encompasses "all religions that do not worship the God of Abraham" in five letters.

But that's not what it means - you wouldn't call Buddhism a form of "paganism", would you?

If "paganism" means anything, it means polytheistic religions. I agree, however, that it is used so broadly as not to be very helpful except in certain limited contexts. This is quite apart from the fact that it is only recently that anyone has actually called themselves "pagan" - the term originated as an insult.

 

[LightSpectra]

But that's not what it means - you wouldn't call Buddhism a form of "paganism", would you?

Yes, I would.

You know, this is the third time we've had this exchange; where I define X, and you provide what you allege to be a counter-example, but seems to me to be perfectly in line with X.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

It seems probable to me that, say, Christianity and Greco-Roman . . . ism, have more in common with each other than either does with Buddhism, so why is it that Buddhism and Greco-Romanism are classified together and Christianity is kept separate?

 

[Plotinus]

Yes, I would.

You know, this is the third time we've had this exchange; where I define X, and you provide what you allege to be a counter-example, but seems to me to be perfectly in line with X.

Yes, it is. I suppose you and I just have different intuitions about these things. There's not much more to be said!

[EDIT] Although I wonder if you'd call Marcionism "pagan". Marcion didn't worship the God of Abraham - did he?

 

[Louis XXIV]

Can we agree that "pagan" is not necessarily a useful word? I mean, what do Greco-Roman beliefs, German or Nordic beliefs, and traditional sub-Saharan African beliefs have in common?

Actually, this is a very good point. I was arguing against Germanic influences in Christianity (besides the obvious of some churches being built on old temples). It's easy to do this by pointing to the Greek church holding similar practices first. But then the argument could just be that it's a borrowing of Greco-Roman practices (never mind that the Greek religion was moving more towards monotheism anyway and that the rationale for invoking saints is entirely different).

The word pagan has its origins in the country, which is why I thought Germanic. Pagan is a pretty vague term. Which religions are we saying that Christianity mostly borrowed from (aside from Judaism, obviously).

 

[Plotinus]

The word pagan has its origins in the country, which is why I thought Germanic. Pagan is a pretty vague term.

The term originally meant adherents of the old Roman religion and came into use in the later fourth century CE. Fashionable Christians in the cities of the empire looked down on them as dreadful backwards bucolic types who lived out in the boondocks and had religious views to match. Of course there was an element to this of deliberately turning the tables, since in the past adherents of the old Roman religion had adopted precisely that attitude towards Christians. So it was a reference to the rural areas of the empire and to Roman religion, rather than to areas outside the empire and Germanic religion.

 

[say1988]

I recently watched an spidoe of this for the first time.
It was nice to learn that Columbus travelled to the New World in "antiquity", based on the Korean turtle ships being used in the Imjin war in "antiquity". And they were directly compared to aircraft carriers.
And the Mongol fleet was entirely made up of the most advanced ships in the world for the second invasion of Japan.

I quit watching after that, before any butchery of the Roman navy.

 

[Louis XXIV]

The term originally meant adherents of the old Roman religion and came into use in the later fourth century CE. Fashionable Christians in the cities of the empire looked down on them as dreadful backwards bucolic types who lived out in the boondocks and had religious views to match. Of course there was an element to this of deliberately turning the tables, since in the past adherents of the old Roman religion had adopted precisely that attitude towards Christians. So it was a reference to the rural areas of the empire and to Roman religion, rather than to areas outside the empire and Germanic religion.

OK, that's my fault. I was thinking the term pagan was an early medieval (or dark age) adaptation. Basically, the same idea (the country, where Christianity was less developed) only after Germans had settled down. I guess I've never really thought about this too much, or else I would have realized that certain things didn't add up.

So I guess the debate should be focused on Greco-Roman traidition inspiring Christianity?

 

[Bowsling]

I recently watched an spidoe of this for the first time.
It was nice to learn that Columbus travelled to the New World in "antiquity", based on the Korean turtle ships being used in the Imjin war in "antiquity". And they were directly compared to aircraft carriers.
And the Mongol fleet was entirely made up of the most advanced ships in the world for the second invasion of Japan.

I quit watching after that, before any butchery of the Roman navy.

Correction: The turtle ships were actually compared to battleships.

The part about the corvus was arguably the best part of the episode. They made a scaled-down version, which illustrated quite nicely all the flaws in it.
What you missed out on, however was an underwater dome which supposedly provided air to Macedonian divers providing intelligence for the capture of Tyre.
The other bit that you missed out on was their "leading modelmaker" going crazy and thinking that the Assyrian inflatable goatskins were re-breathers.

 

[say1988]

Correction: The turtle ships were actually compared to battleships.

Maybe at a different point, but they were comparing the turtle ship with its cannons firing long missiles to an aircraft carrier.