Another form of SE? Brainstorming

JujuLautre

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I had a strange idea yesterday for a different kind of game, and wanted to share it with you. Perhaps it has already been discussed, I don't know.

Before starting, I would like to make clear my situation: I suck at SE, and usually use a CE (vanilla prince actually). I tried an SE once, following this guide, but ended up doing things without really knowing what I was doing and lost the fun of it. But what I understand now of a SE is:
- using scientists to generate science (library + observatory (+universities))
- using great scientists generated to bulb techs (usually all the way to liberalism)
- having a super science city pumping science and great scientits more often than the others (oxford, academy?, great library)
- having a super gold city spammed with cottages to generate income to support all the other cities (generally capital + bureaucracy +shrine? +wall street?)
- running a low science slider once the economy is running (0%?)

I don't know if all of this is true for everyone, but this is not the point. Just to say that this was my starting point for this new idea.

Now, what if we reversed the roles of the cities? I mean:
- using merchants to generate income (market + grocer)
- having a super one city spammed with cottages to generate science to support all the research (generally capital + bureaucracy + academy + oxford)
- running a high science slider

This is the basis. Basically, it's a merchant specialist enocomy against a scientist specialist econoy, it's a 100%SE against a 0%SE if you compare the science sliders :)
I tried yesterday a game on noble (because it's still a "specialist" economy, I suck at it and this was a new challenge) using it, and it's actually a lot of fun :)

But I'm not very experimented in the game, so I could not say if this strategy is viable at higher level, and it was only one game. I just wanted to share my thoughts, to discuss them. To give ideas to everyone and to let me improve, even if this strategy is not viable at high level. Some are still theory, others I experimented in the game:

About great people:
- generates more great merchants than great scientists. Less good for lightbuilbing, but the cash runs really high. Actually, sometime you have enough merchants, so you can still use scientists and generate great scientists
- require good partners to maximize the effect of the great merchants.

About civics:
- you have less benefit from representation. Still helps for science, but it's better to run scientists with library/universities/representation than to run merchants with the sae buildings and representation.
- you have a good benefit from universal suffrage, considering the cash.
- using nationhood sacrifices some part of science (because you lose bureaucracy)
- caste system really helps by allowing merchants before markets and grocers are online.

About drafting/the whip:
- using them does not sacrifice science, but income

About the slider:
- pumping culture because you need it sacrifice science instead of income

About warfare:
- I always read that SE has a great synergy with warfare. This economy also has, because the huge amount of cash you can generate really helps, by paying for the army and mostly for the upgrades

About expanding:
- scales well. With a grocer, a market and 4 merchants you generate 18 :gold: , so basically each city can easily pay for itself and even more.

About the buildings:
- require more buildings than a classic SE. Because you need markets/grocer to run it, but you still need universities/libraries for oxford. On the other hand, markets/grocer both help cities to grow because of :health: and :)

About the capital:
- capital + cottages + bureaucracy + academy + oxford + science buildings sees to me more powerful and early feasible than capital + cottages + bureaucracy + wall street + gold buildings

About the techs:
- as for the buildings, require more techs than a classic SE. Because you need the usuall education for oxford, but also guilds for grocers.

About flexibility:
I read a lot people saying that an SE is flexible. Having that in mind, plus the fact (perhaps wrong) that in as SE, you usually run the science slider up for some time before dropping it, I was wondering if I could run such an economy after a classic SE. The plan would be:
- begin the game like an SE, building/whiping libraries and the usual buildings, getting great scientists, the universities
- build oxford and the academy in the capital instead of in a super science city; if the science slider is still high (60%?), it's still profitable.
- once you hit guilds (or perhaps before with just currency, perhaps at the time you build oxford), switch from scientists SE to merchant SE: whip/build markets and grocers and use merchants to generate income and raise the science slider up to 100%
- if you get a religion and a shrine, it can obviously become a super-gold city exactly as the super science city for the SE

I think that's all for this time. Surely forgot some things, but I think it's a good basis :)
 
i have no idea if it would work in practice, but sounds solid in theory. The ALC game that was played as Kublai benefitted a hell of a lot from great merchants. I would expect to spawn several of these in your system which would allow me to keep my slider maxed.

I also like the idea because you're thinking of something different. I always like to hear some new ideas and strategies. Keep us posted on how it goes. i may try this tomorrow. Seems financial would be good for this or optimally Liz would be the pick for max power.
 
The ALC game that was played as Kublai benefitted a hell of a lot from great merchants.

I think this is one of the thing that inspired me for trying this approach. But the main difference is that in the ALC game, the GM were used to fuel research even with a gold deficit, whereas here, I expect to be able to give 100% science AND have a positive income.

Keep us posted on how it goes. i may try this tomorrow. Seems financial would be good for this or optimally Liz would be the pick for max power.

I' not sure financial would be the way to go, because as in a classic SE, you hardly build cottages (except in one super science/gold city).

As for the gae, I'm actually at work and won't perhaps finish it until a few days, but it's actually won (will go conquest). Basically: I wanted it easy to try, so picked Saladin on noble (spiritual is great when you want to test something so civics-oriented) (don't laugh on these easy settings, I'm not a good player :blush: ).

I discovered myself on a poor looking island, fractal map I suppose, near the south (lots of tundra) and with a big desert, having Julius as neighbour. Whiped him early, mostly because he had no copper when I had some, and thanks to Super-Warrior (killed 6 archers all by himself, just sitting outside Rome waiting for suicides :crazyeye: ). Then I let the machine run: went oracle/CoL for early Caste System and hopefully a shrine (had two prophets when I wanted 1 prophet and 1 scientist :sad: ); first (before the war with Julius) irrigated the capitol and all the other cities to benefit from specialists/whip, and then began to cottage it slowly. It still had 2 flood plains and two food ressources, so I was able to generate some GP thanks to scientists and the GL. Wanted to bulb my way to liberalism, but I only got 1 GS, that I used for eduction, after the second prophet. Blah, still was the first (it's noble after all).

During the same time, I settled my small island with two more cities after Rome, making 5, using merchants and irrigation in turn in the cities to build/whip my first buildings/defending units and still being at 100% science. Then I discovered education and... what? Five cities? :wallbash:

After this the machine was ok; my capital was producing more than 500 beakers before scientific method and allowed me to continue teching cooly. Went for optics, and after I found my neighbours, guilds, which allowed me to come back to slavery. This plus 3 GM (two born + one of one tech) also allowed me to mass-upgrade my troops and rise in power. Was last, after all...

Eventually, I was the first to Chemistry/military tradition/steel, and crazy Alex DoWed me because I was weak, although he hadn't astronomy, only galleys for his troop; never saw one near my coasts :crazyeye:. Am actually moving my infantry-cannons-cavalry-galleons-frigates SoD across the ocean to raze the biggest cities, annihilate the ennemy SoD, and plan on razing everything once I hit tanks. War Weariness was a problem some times, not sure how to deal with that properly (as I said, raising the culture slider sacrifices research :dunno: )

Finally, I' not sure this is a great example because:
- I'm not a so good player
- Saladin/noble
- Isolation on a very poor island (thankfully you can irrigate tundra, otherwise one of my cities
It's almost 1900 and I did not win yet :wallbash:

But it was fun and brougth me to write all this :D

Joined: two saves for those who want to see how bad I play ;)
 
Actially it is one of posible strats I do if I got isolated start.

Idea is, one can not trade tech in isolated start, so one can not fill up older tech with trade. One need to self research a lot. How one can compeat with trading AI?

So, I cottage my capital and build library in it, but when I got COL I revolt to castle system and run merchants in my outside cities in order to support 100% sci. I still first run somewhere 2 scientist for first GS for academy in capital. Then my next GP's are merchants.
One can use merchant for speed up Optics (Machinery could be ligth bulbed).
When Optics come I send my GM's out to get money from developed outside world to continue to support my 100% science.

It is tend to be effective only in islated start, because otherwize money for running 100% sci could be abtained by trading tech.

It works nice even for Immortal isolated start.
 
This sounds interesting! I was planning on starting a thread on the GME outlined in Sisiutil's ALC 14 once I got Warlords. The idea was to use that kind of economy with a Finacial civ; a Philosophical civ; a civ with neither; and Lizzy. I just got the hang of Noble SE's(normally a CE guy), which would be the standard game for most people. Again, this has some solid ground to stand on, theorectically, so I think this should definetly be put to the test in the forum. If not you, then sometime in July, I should get my hands on that and start this up.
 
only problem i can see with this is that you generally want more scientists than merchants and that reprensetation kinda make your merchant cities half gold / half science so you cant just have markets.
 
only problem i can see with this is that you generally want more scientists than merchants and that reprensetation kinda make your merchant cities half gold / half science so you cant just have markets.
I agree, but check the about civics section of the first post.
 
Thanks for the answers. Seems it's not a so stupid idea :D

I'll try it again when I can. I finished my game yesterday just to see the outcome and push the experimentations until the end: I did not want to extend my empire and at the same time wanted to see the conquest movie, so I razed everything. Funny how low the diplomacy modifier can go when you burn cities :D
Here are some more observations:
- Inflation was a problem in this game. After a while, I ended up in the red (having 10000 :gold: at the end of the game but still), and the only reason I saw of this was inflation.
- Research was also a problem. My only capital was not enough at all to support all the research, which went slowly at the end of the game. I was wondering if I could have added one or two cottage cities to my game.
Mostly, these two problems were due to the fact that I did not have enough cities. Keeping some of the captured cities should have helped. And if I'm correct, these are also problems of the usual CE: can someone tell me if I'm wrong here or not?

Also, I was wondering about the absence of the usual GS. Could some SE addict tell at which point great scientists are necessary (or not) to this kind of economy?
 
Inflation?:confused: not sure what you mean by that...

anyway, even in an SE, you may need more than one cottage city if A) your cottage city is NOT your capital(bureacracy) or B) you're not waging war.
Also, research shouldn't be a problem if you run representation to get your merchant to produce science. Also, don't forget that if you're building all those commerce mutipliers, your research slider should be through the roof.
 
Inflation?:confused: not sure what you mean by that...
What you pay each turn depends on:
- units
- civics
- cities
- inflation
(check financial advisor for that)
Usually I never bother with inflation. But this time whan I was wondering what cost me so much, I realizer this was a big factor.

anyway, even in an SE, you may need more than one cottage city if A) your cottage city is NOT your capital(bureacracy) or B) you're not waging war.
Also, research shouldn't be a problem if you run representation to get your merchant to produce science. Also, don't forget that if you're building all those commerce mutipliers, your research slider should be through the roof.

Also note I was running police state because I was warring all the time and WW became an annoyance :crazyeye:

But as I said in the beginning and oyzar pointed out, even with representation, represented merchants will never be as efficient as represented scientists.

Actually, one of my idea if I could use the above plan "scientists SE -> merchants SE" would be, after expansion over 6 cities, to keep the first cities which built universities for oxford devoted to scientists if possible instead of merchants, and run merchants in the new (conquered?) cities. Of course, it's only theory ;)
 
I would not build a whole game on this strat.
It is good for starting isolation part of game, but then I would change for somethign else depends.
 
I think you may want multiple cottaged cities as game progresses depending on the size of your empire. (that's why i suggested financial) But my advice and calculations are not as good as a lot of folks around here, so that may be wrong. i generally like to have fun and play some things that don't fall into the common accepted "power strategies" that most people stick to.
 
But when can you start having Merchant?
I mean, currency arrives later than writing ...
Markets are more expensive than libraries ...

I'm really not used to beline to currency (I trade for it) so it seems strange to me ... And costly! ;)
 
After a month long analysis of the SE i came to the conclusion a specialist economy suck and isent better then a CE in the short or long run..
And everyone who claim it is better for war mongering is wroung
 
After a month long analysis of the SE i came to the conclusion a specialist economy suck and isent better then a CE in the short or long run..
And everyone who claim it is better for war mongering is wroung

it is for 2 even 3 pop whipping. oh man does it kick ass at that. just whip as many people as you can in one go that you can grow back in the turns of unhappiness. increase growth by having a granary and having your specialists work after you whip.
 
But when can you start having Merchant?
I mean, currency arrives later than writing ...

CoL gives you caste system. Unlimited merchants, markets not necessary. Problem solved.although they do multiply the commerce.

Also, I'm beginning to think that merchants are as effective as scientists under representation, maybe just a little weaker. Think about it. Merchants under representation produce 3:science:; same as a normal scientist, and 3:commerce:; which go straight to your treasury. With the research slider maxed out, that equivocates to 6:science: per merchant, along with a more unique Great Person to create. I still say this should be taken for a test run; If no one minds that we'd be using vanilla civ, I'd be willing to do it.
 
It's an interesting strat only markets, grocers, banks are extremely expensive.

Or are they?!?:p

Commerce multipliers: bank, markets, grocer.
Science multipliers: observatory,library, university, laboratory.
:hammers: needed for commerce multipliers: 200:hammers:+150:hammers:+150:hammers:=500:hammers: .
:hammers: needed for science multipliers:150:hammers:+ 90:hammers:+ 200:hammers:+250:hammers: =690:hammers:
net gain from using commrce multipliers instead of science multipliers in terms of :hammers:=190:hammers:
(BTW, this won't stop me from using the science buildings. Why? Tech is power.Tech is power.Tech is power.:crazyeye: )
 
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